Marriage 2.0: Saying, “I Do” Again

The loss of a spouse may be the hardest thing we can ever face. Lingering questions might haunt us seemingly forever. If I remarry, will I somehow diminish my first husband or wife? Must I, therefore, remain alone for the rest of my life? How can I possibly make room for someone new in my life?

Not surprisingly these questions are faced every day by those around us. With us today are Jenny and Dan Muscatell. Jenny has faced these questions and is here today to talk about her answers. After losing her first husband, Thale, to a heart attack, she has remarried and begun life anew with Dan.

Links mentioned in the show:

Jenny and Dan Muscatell have their own podcast: And That's the #Truth

Jenny Muscatell's book

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Transcript

Jenny Muscatell: 0:00

One of the things that I really needed to make sure of was, would this be good for my children? You know, that is something that you consider when you're marrying someone. And it's not the first time around.

Michael Liben: 0:20

Welcome friends to the Sixth Season of "Bereaved But Still Me". Our purpose is to empower members of our community. I'm Michael Liben and the father of three children; Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel, my youngest daughter, was born with a heart defect and later she developed autism and epilepsy. Losing Liel at 15, this is what brought me here to be the host of this program. The loss of a spouse may be the hardest thing we can ever face. lingering questions might haunt a seemingly forever. If I remarry, will I somehow diminish my first husband or wife? Must I therefore remain alone for the rest of my life? How can I possibly make room for somebody new in my life? Not surprisingly, these questions are faced everyday by those around us. With us today are Jenny and Dan Muscatell. Jenny has faced these questions and is here today to talk about her answers. After losing her first husband, Thale, to a heart attack, she has remarried and began life anew with Dan. Jenny Muscatell is a licensed social worker, blogger, best selling author, co-host [of], "And That's the #Truth" podcast, and photographer. Jenny is also co founder of "The Heart Community Collection" with over two decades of experience in the social work field. No -with over two decades of experience in the social services field, Jenny has established an extensive reservoir of expertise specializing in crisis intervention, health systems, and end of life care. Jenny is also the author of the Amazon best selling book, "The Journey of Faith and an Open Heart". You can see more about Jenny at jennymuscatell.com. As a public speaker, she has shared her faith and experiences on a variety of podcasts. Widowed at 36 and mom to a hypoplastic left heart syndrome warrior who has required eight major open heart surgeries, Jenny knows the ache of difficult times. She spends countless hours supporting her heart community through various efforts and works hard to help others stand in perseverance and cling to hope. Daniel Muscatell, Pastor, blogger, and avid reader, has served as an editor for several published works. With almost two decades of experience serving in the ministry field, Daniel has developed a passion to engage with the community around him, whether it be on the street, on the job, or within healthcare settings. Daniel is a graduate of Valley Forge Christian College, having gained his Bachelor's Degree in Theological and Religious Studies. Daniel, a compassionate soul, is not afraid to dive deep into the topics of life and discuss hard truths, he brings voice to the necessary, attention to the forgotten, and reason above the noise. As a New York native who was raised in an Italian family, he knows the importance of great conversation over a hearty meal, which is why their website features some family recipes for all of us to enjoy. Jenny, Daniel, welcome to "Bereaved But Still Me".

Jenny Muscatell: 2:54

Thank you for having us.

Michael Liben: 2:57

Jenny, I'll begin with you today. What kind of hurdles did you have to pass before you felt you could date again, let alone remarry?

Jenny Muscatell: 3:04

Well, the funny thing about that is is I didn't really plan to date again, or have a specific set of hurdles in mind. I think that it was something that just happened after Thale died, I actually had told myself and other people, I will probably never marry again or even enter into a relationship again, one of the things that you find out when you lose your spouse is that your whole entire life changes and that one person that you planned on sharing everything with is no longer there. So the idea of changing your entire plan is kind of hard to even think about. So when Dan and I met, we actually were both kind of in a similar situation in that we did not want to have a relationship with somebody. So we found some comfort in the idea that there would be an individual there who could be a friend. But through that friendship, one thing led to another and before you knew it, we were like school kids in love and, we were, and ready to start a life together.

Michael Liben: 4:21

Well, now that you brought it up, how did you meet Dan?

Jenny Muscatell: 4:24

Well, the thing is, is I had actually known Dan before, we both had children that we're so close in age, our older daughters were in school together, our younger daughters were in school together. We were always the chaperones on the school field trips. Of course, all of those years in knowing him I was married, so had no interest whatsoever in getting to know him in any other way than he was the other chaperone on the trip. So you know he was that dad who was always there for his girls, he was the dad who was showing up at everything., and he was just really well respected and liked by everyone who met him. And a comfortable face who was friendly, warm, kind, gentle, and quite humorous. So Dan, I knew all along, but after Thale died, he was honestly probably one of the first people that said something to me that stuck with me. He had seen me, I think it had been, I don't know, it's been a few months after Thale's death, and I had seen him at the movie theater. And he came up and he said, "Oh, gosh, Jenny, I'm so sorry, I don't even have words, but I'm so sorry for what you're dealing with". And that was something I could relate to, on a very personal level. Because even being a writer, I always feel like I've had words for just about everything. But when Thale, died, I felt like I no longer had a vocabulary to match the depth or width of the pain that I was experiencing. And, you know, people often want to console, comfort, make things better. And in these kinds of situations, you can't do that you can't make things better. But there was something in his ability to recognize that along with the genuineness in his eyes, that brought me comfort, and it stuck with me. And every week after that, we attended the same church, I would see him briefly five minutes here, five minutes there. "Hey, how's it going?" And one day, I said,"Gosh, you know, I'd really like to go out for coffee or something with Dan, because he's just an enjoyable person to be around. And you know, he brings me -

Michael Liben: 6:47

You know, he's right next, he can hear everything you say.

Jenny Muscatell: 6:50

Yeah. And before I could even do that he, that very next Sunday, he said,"Hey, how would you like to grab coffee sometime?" And I was like, "Oh, well, look at that. He was thinking the same thing". But again, in that point in time, we were just, let's do this as friends. And we meant it.

Michael Liben: 7:13

Jenny, let's look forward for a minute. You know, Dan, you're considering getting married, what were some of the internal conversations that you had with yourself? In deciding to go ahead? How did you make it okay for yourself? After having decided you weren't ever going to get married again? How did you make this okay?

Jenny Muscatell: 7:26

It really was, there were a lot of internal discussions that went along with that. We both had families, you know, I had two girls, Dan had, well has, I have two girls, he has two girls. And, you know, we also have in-laws and large extended families. And when you're first starting out in a relationship, you don't often think about the fact that you know, you're bringing home your, your boyfriend or your girlfriend to meet mom and dad for the first time. And so when you're suddenly in your 40s, and you're doing the same steps of,"Hey, I'm going to bring this person home to meet my, my sibling, my relative, my kids", it's a little bit different, because you, you're an adult who can make your own decisions, but you still have to kind of consider everybody else's feelings. And after the death of a spouse that gets complicated, because everybody's experiencing a loss of someone they love and it's a sensitive thing to bring somebody new into the dynamic. And one of the things that I would realize on my own accord was, well, wait a minute, I don't I don't have to run every decision or every move forward that I make by someone else, you know, I have to do what I believe is honorable and right for my own life and my own family at the end of the day. And one of the things that I really needed to make sure of was, would this be good for my children? You know, that is something that you consider when you're marrying someone and it's not the first time around. And so I, if I'm being honest, I would say, "What would what would Thale, think about this, what would Thale want in this situation". And my husband, Thale, he was very much a caretaker and he spent his entire marriage to me taking care of me and taking care of the girls. And he was a wonderful provider and a wonderful dad. And I know he was always there for me and losing him was one of the most difficult things that I had ever gone through. Yet every loss or every hardship I'd ever had before losing him, he was there. He was my support person. He comforted me. And so suddenly when I went through this biggest loss ever he wasn't there to comfort me. He wasn't there to be there. He wasn't there to help with all the things that the girls needed. And in that I knew he would not want me to have gone through the rest of this life alone, he would have wanted me to have somebody to share it with. He would have wanted a male in the house as well with two girls because there's some protection that goes along with that. And also, I think he would have liked Dan, I think they would have been friends had they been able to get to know each other in life in some other way.

Anna Jaworski: 10:35

You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like address on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The opinions expressed in a podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 11:14

Dan, you knew Jenny was a widow. So I assume you realized this wasn't going to be an ordinary relationship? What were your concerns, if any?

Dan Muscatell: 11:22

I feel like this was ordinary. You know, when you meet someone and you like them, and you want to get to know them, that's the only thing that was in my mind, not the only thing, I obviously I realized she was a widow. But what is ordinary? I mean, is is someone that standard of ordinary? In my head, there really isn't because every relationship is unique. And every relationship has its own considerations for the relationship and what each person has been through, what each person is bringing to the table, what each person is willing to do, how each person is willing to grow and change and be open to things. So in my mind, the word ordinary doesn't come into play. Every person has something that they have left behind when they've died, and each of us is going to leave something behind. And he was the kind of person that left so many good things behind. That it's just a natural outflow of our household still in his life, which is very much here in a lot of ways. He just was the person that has left so much good things behind that so many things still come up and flow out of everything that he was. And it's really awesome to be a part of who he was, still today.

Michael Liben: 12:47

I find that really interesting. What you what you're saying basically, is that every relationship is what it is. And you understood what the conditions were and didn't seem to deter you in any way. Which is very interesting, because I think people who haven't been in that situation might might not understand that.

Jenny Muscatell: 13:04

The only thing I could add to that is, if I could jump in here, is that he did probably have one concern, which was knowing if I was ready, because when we were hanging out, I actually, in my own head, was like, "oh, gosh, I'm starting to have feelings for Dan". And I thought, ooh, you know, I wasn't expecting that. And when I began to have feelings for him, I wondered and questioned, should I continue to hang out with him because we both had really just explored having a platonic friendship relationship and hadn't wanted more. And that very next time that we got together, he had actually asked me, "Hey, can I ask you a question?" And I didn't think much of it, because he was always starting conversation that way. "Can I ask you a question?" But this time, I, you know, I said,"Sure". And he said, "Is it okay that I like you?" And I was like, "Oh, my goodness, it's a relief, because I was feeling the same way". And we both must have bounced off of each other repeatedly with that was so unexpected.

Dan Muscatell: 14:12

We said the phrase that "This is so unexpected", a lot.

Michael Liben: 14:17

I can imagine. Dan, I want to ask you something else. I will assume that Thale's presence in the house is not unnoticeable. What does it mean to you that he's always kind of close behind?

Dan Muscatell: 14:27

I think that it's awesome. And the opposite would be very awkward. If he were not ever talked about or mentioned or anything that would be definitely awkward, and that he's a part is what I would expect. It seems like the normal outflow of life because often what comes up is, Thale would have said this right now. Or he would have thought this right now because what he has thought and and said when he was here is still relevant and still comes up in their memories. And I'm also always glad to hear about what he would do and say, and I've been curious about what he would do and say, and it's almost, well, I know him a little bit from only what I hear about him. But you do feel like you know, a person a little when you hear about the stuff that he would do and say,

Michael Liben: 15:26

Let me go in a different direction here, you didn't take on just a wife, but you had a ready made family, you brought two daughters, she brought two daughters. And one of them has a congenital heart defect, which is rather serious. Well, how did that affect your thinking, when you were planning to marry, you are now taking on the position of a Congenital Heart Defect Family, which is not simple.

Dan Muscatell: 15:46

in my head, that really wasn't a factor. Because I liked her, I was falling in love with her. And it just that stuff to me, doesn't matter, because that's just who she is. And that's just what's going on. So, you know, in a way, that's not something you see in one sense, because if they have a CHD condition, if they have a muscular condition, if they have any condition whatsoever in life, that's just a small physical part of who they are. There's so much more than that. And also, they are a lot of what they are because of that. So it's just about understanding and knowing someone for who they are. And each of us have experiences that make us who we are. And whether it's we go through something good or bad, or neither. It's that in my head was just something I didn't consciously think about, because that's just who she was. So I didn't have a special consideration or separate thought process that thought about this girl has CHD.

Michael Liben: 17:00

That's very kind of you. And I'm not sure that everybody would see it that way, but I really am impressed by your your outlook on it, that everything is just comes as it is, and you take it as the whole.

Dan Muscatell: 17:12

I really don't feel like I had a lot of special considerations. Like I said, when you meet someone and you like them, and you start falling in love, everything that you do becomes about being together and becomes about each other in each other's families and being together. So yeah, it just feels like that in my own for me in my own head. That's what it sounds like it feels like.

Michael Liben: 17:37

If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website, heartsunitetheglobe.org and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of Hearts Unite the Globe and is a part of the HUG Podcast Network. Hearts Unite the Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the Congenital Heart Defect Community to educate, empower, and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com. For information about CHD, hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families, and much, much more. Jenny, tell us about your book, who it's for, how can we get it.

Jenny Muscatell: 18:28

So my book is"The Journey of Faith and an Open Heart". And I'll actually read you just a little excerpt from the author part in there which talks about who it's for,

it says: 18:37

"This book is for every mom who's ever wheeled her child to the altar behind an operating door. It is for every parent that has given permission for a surgeon to risk their baby's life in order to save it, it is for the spouse that has found their loved one no longer living, it's for the Christian who's lived in fear and fought for faith, it is for the broken who feel the exhaustion of pain". I wrote that book when I was going through all of the broken because I wanted people to see the real picture because we have a tendency to make things smooth for other people and make conversations easier when we're having difficulties on the inside. You can find it really anywhere that books are sold. You can go to our website, jennymuscatell.com or muscatellministries.com. You can find it on The Heart community Collections website at theheartcommunitycollection.com or Amazon Books, Barnes and Noble, anywhere.

Michael Liben: 19:35

Jenny Have you get something in the works now that you want to tell us about them coming down the line?

Jenny Muscatell: 19:39

I have a lot of things in the works. What I'd like to focus on today is The Heart Community Collection website which is co founded by myself, Anna Jaworski, and Amy M. Le, and we are putting together or have put together our very first CHD magazine and that is available, on our website, you can find the link there at theheartcommunitycollection.com. And we have the next issue coming out this February, we are accepting submissions through January 31. You can find the submission link on our website. And we're really, really excited about that project. It's been really, really nice to hear all the stories of different people who have contributed. There's recipes, there's something in there for everybody who is impacted by CHD.

Michael Liben: 20:27

Well, I hope it does well. And I hope a lot of people who hear this go over there and check it out. I know I certainly will.

Jenny Muscatell: 20:33

Thank you.

Michael Liben: 20:34

Finally, Dan, I would be remiss if we didn't relate to the food. Explain the relevance of food, deep discussion, and being Italian.

Dan Muscatell: 20:44

You know, when anyone talks, and especially talks at length, you don't want to be sitting there with nothing in your hand and nothing in your mouth, you have to have food and drink around. So you know, the conversation will be like, two minutes when you add food to that, especially good food, and especially if you prepare it together, then you have so much more time to spend with each other and a lot of happy flavors to enjoy while you enjoy each other's conversation. I mean, can you have one without the other?

Michael Liben: 21:22

No, I don't, you can't, I totally agree with everything you've said. And I have to say that from a Jewish perspective, it's exactly the same I think almost every Jewish occasion has to do in one way or another with the food that goes along with it. So much so that it's an exaggeration, but for major Jewish holidays, we like to say they tried to kill us, we won, let's eat. And I totally agree. Especially making the food together. Because when you sit down, you may be discussing something you don't agree with, but you've shared the experience of making that food.

Dan Muscatell: 21:59

That's very true. And shared. And then the appreciation for all the flavors and textures and smells.

Michael Liben: 22:07

Absolutely, absolutely. So tell us something you like to eat when you're having a deep discussion.

Dan Muscatell: 22:12

Well, definitely lasagna's one of them. It's very filling, and dense. And you know, appetizers which, you know, in an Italian household, our cookbook is called"Antipasto", which means before the meal. So that could be any number of cheeses, artichoke hearts, crackers, meats, the little, you know, finger foods.

Michael Liben: 22:35

Hmm. So are you personally a good cook?

Dan Muscatell: 22:39

I'm okay. Because what I can, I can say that I enjoy cooking. And, you know, as a lot of times, I don't do a lot of measuring.

Jenny Muscatell: 22:49

He's an excellent cook. He's being modest. My youngest daughter said we always had our whole entire their whole entire lives. When they have their birthday, they were able to choose what they wanted to eat for their birthday meal. And I would make whatever it was no matter how elaborate it was because it was their birthday and that was our tradition. But when Dan came into the picture, the only thing they ever wanted at that point was his lasagna. So now I am off the hook so he is definitely being modest. He's an excellent cook.

Michael Liben: 23:24

Well, I can tell you the exact reverse is true. Once once my in-laws figured out that I can make lasagna. And they invited us over for like big family get togethers over to bring something they don't even ask anymore. They tell my wife,"tell Michael he's bringing lasagna".

Dan Muscatell: 23:39

That's awesome.

Michael Liben: 23:40

There's something about lasagna that just makes people happy.

Dan Muscatell: 23:43

I know it, sure. There sure is.

Jenny Muscatell: 23:45

I mean, Garfield likes it.

Michael Liben: 23:50

No, I like food too much. That's part of my problem. But absolutely I agree that it helps. Especially if you're going to be discussing things that are you know, difficult, at least you should be you know, you should feel good right? Should be in a good mood. So-

Jenny Muscatell: 24:05

Well 100%. What do you, what do you do, you know somebody has a wedding, you celebrate you have food. Somebody has a hard day you bring them chocolate. Somebody, you know, loss of a spouse you bring food by. You know food food really is a staple.

Michael Liben: 24:18

That's a whole episode on how Jews do that because the the friends and neighbors and family bring food

Jenny Muscatell: 24:21

Red for me. for a week. Mm hmm. Me specifically so you don't have

Dan Muscatell: 24:27

All red. to think about it. That's that's a whole other episode, we've been there more than once. But about the food. I think that's a great way to end. I'll just have one last question. Red or white?

Michael Liben: 24:40

All the Italian food red wine.

Dan Muscatell: 24:41

We thought you meant sauce.

Michael Liben: 24:44

Oh no, no.

Dan Muscatell: 24:45

Like tomato or Alfredo. I you know-

Michael Liben: 24:47

No, it's always tomato. When you come to my house, I will cook for you. Some of the best salmon you've ever had. Well, we'll take it from there.

Dan Muscatell: 24:55

Oh, that sounds wonderful.

Michael Liben: 24:56

So we're waiting for you. Jenny, Dan, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure.

Jenny Muscatell: 25:01

Thank you so much for having us.

Dan Muscatell: 25:03

It's been wonderful to talk to you.

Michael Liben: 25:05

Well, I've enjoyed it. Jenny we all know has been on the program before, Dan, it's your first time and I hope to see you again. I want to thank you both for sharing your experiences and your advice with us and I hope your story will bring comfort to the many others who find themselves in a similar place. Please join us the beginning of the month for a brand new podcast. I'll talk with you soon and until then, please remember, moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 25:27

Thank you for joining us. We hope you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast, and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".