Companion Pet Loss - From Grief to Inspiration with Erica Messer

Erica Messer talks with Bereaved But Still Me host Michael Liben about pet loss and how she wasn’t able to find resources to help her cope with her grief. After losing her beloved cat, Wolfgang, she discovered a need for pet-loss resources. With her mother’s encouragement, she started Wolfie’s Wish, a company providing resources for those who are grieving the loss of a pet.

Erica’s website: https://wolfieswish.com/

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Transcript

Erica Messer: 0:00

I feel so lucky that I had the experience with him and the bond with him. And I hope that everyone can find a heart animal or heart pet in their lifetime because it's it's such a beautiful gift.

Michael Liben: 0:26

What relationship do humans have with their pets? How serious is it for pet lovers when their pets die? Do humans go through the same grieving process when they lose a pet than when they go through when they lose a loved one? Welcome to "Bereaved But Still Me". Our purpose is to empower members of our community. I am Michael Liben the father of three children - Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel, my youngest daughter, was born with a heart defect and later developed autism and epilepsy. Losing her 15 is what has brought me here to be the host of this program. Comedian George Carlin has said that the major problem with getting pets is that we know upfront that we're getting into something that will definitely end badly. Indeed, when Laila was a puppy, my daughter Sapir was very uneasy around the new dog and I told her that she should treat Laila, like her sister. But at that same moment, I also made myself a new daughter. Is that a common experience for pet owners? This episode of "Bereaved But Still Me" is going to take a slightly different turn. Two thirds of Americans own pets and that translates to 86.9 million homes. Everyone on the staff this podcast owns a pet or more and chances are that most of our listeners own pets. So it behooves us - pun intended - to take a serious look at pet loss. And yes, nobody's comparing a pet to a person and everybody knows the difference. But for those of us who have lost both, we may find the line gets just a little fuzzy. Our pets have worked their way into our hearts, we sweat for them, we toil for them, we feed them, and we love them, and we welcome them into our families. Our guest today is Erica Messer, who after the sudden passing of her beloved cat, Wolfgang embarked on a heartfelt quest to find a simple way to cope with her grief. Frustrated by the lack of products and encouraged by her mother, Bonnie, she created the perfect solution - Pet Loss Grieving Cards. Thus, "Wolfie's Wish" was born. And the innovative concept of grieving cards garnered widespread attention, including receiving a prestigious Best New Product award at the esteemed SuperZoo Trade Show in 2022. Erica finds joy and solace in her love of music, performing pop and rock covers on the harp. With clinical musical training, she helps people navigate their grief through the healing powers of music. Erica's artistic talents also shine through her hand painted pet portraits, showcasing her love for animals and dedication to capturing their spirits on canvas. She both wrote and illustrated captivating stories and tales of spirit pets. Residing in the picturesque city of Munich, Germany, Erica shares her life with a loving husband and three cherished feline companions, Peachy, Milli, and Vanilli. In today's program, we're going to learn more about Erica, her card deck, and some advice regarding pet loss. Erica, welcome to"Bereaved But Still Me".

Erica Messer: 3:19

Thank you.

Michael Liben: 3:20

Let's start by learning more about your first experience with pet loss. Can you tell me more about that?

Erica Messer: 3:25

My parents had two dogs, Jute and Jet, that I grew up with and you know they had before they had kids. And I remember I was seven years old, and my babysitter picked me up from school and said, "You know, I have to tell you something, Jute died today". I guess Jute was old but no one had talked to me about death or that she was going to die. And so it really just kind of came out of nowhere. And I remember bursting into tears, even though I didn't really feel like Jute was my dog, and she slept outside, I mean, it was a different dynamic. But I still felt this big sense of just like a rug had been pulled out. And the shock of it all and we buried her. Like the family didn't talk about any of it. We just buried her. She was old. My dad had found her outside. And it was kind of like that's it, next. It was very jarring experience.

Michael Liben: 4:24

I think part of that jarring experience isn't necessarily, in this case, you told me you didn't think about her as yours. But there's something regular in your life about having an animal around, right? You have to take care of your pet. You have to relate to your pet. You're there. And so I think that's enough. How old were you when this happened?

Erica Messer: 4:43

Seven.

Michael Liben: 4:44

I think that's enough. You know, you don't necessarily have to love something to miss it. If it breaks your routine, and I think that's a lot of it. When Laila died, and that's recent for us, one of the things we noticed was that things that she was a part of without our really thinking about, she was gone, she was no longer part of those things. I was sitting down together to have dinner, she'd sit by me and expect me to toss her some bread. That stopped happening. And of course, we did love her, and that was part of the thing is that we made her, accidentally or not, we made her part of the family. Once I called her a sister to my other daughters, then she was suddenly my daughter. And I had to live with that. And I guess what Carlin meant when he said, it's going to end badly and you know it, from the very first day. We said before, that your mother, Bonnie, encouraged you to move into this concept of products for pet loss. Is your mother, a pet lover? And tell us about her experience with pets and how she supported your project.

Erica Messer: 5:43

She has such a big heart, and she's a serial cat owner. So she and my dad actually divorced, and I think the first thing she did was get a cat. And then it just it would live out its life. She did adopt them or find them or they'd find her. So she was very accustomed to losing them. And she always said it was hard. They were all buried in the same place in her yard. It was a little pet cemetery in the front yard. But when Wolfgang died, it was during the pandemic and we hadn't seen each other and she'd never met Wolfgang, but she knew how much I loved him because the day that I brought him home, we were in the bathtub, and it was just getting him acclimated to the bathroom. That was his first zone. I FaceTimed her and we both just kind of bonded more over adopting him. And anyway, so she understood the pain that I was going through, especially with his tragic death, and that I had to witness. So I would talk to her every day, I just really needed that comfort and regularity of that. And someone that would understand. So I would share with her like, "Mom, I didn't know where to look but I found this and I meditated and I decided to write this letter" and day after day share with her these little tools that were helping me along is when she said, "I think you should make that deck that you couldn't find you were looking for a pet loss deck like an affirmation card deck. Something simple. And it sounds like you've been doing that because every day I talk to you, you've got one new thing that's helping you just inch a little bit further on in your grief journey". I just said,"That sounds hard. I don't know how". And I'm grieving. Right? I'm busy. But my mom is gently persistent. I would never say she's a nag. You wouldn't know it.

Michael Liben: 7:32

You're very kind.

Erica Messer: 7:34

It's true, though. I'm very lucky in that regard.

Michael Liben: 7:37

Well, she did have a really good eye there. Because she saw what you were doing was essentially building these affirmations by having one more thing to say every day. She had a good eye for that. And that's to her credit. And we'll say that she was gently encouraging.

Erica Messer: 7:53

Yeah, she was so kind during that whole period and just listened and was there for me and showed up for me, which is what I think everyone needs. No matter that type of loss. We all need someone that's just going to be there and nod like "Yep, I'm here for you, I'm going to show up for you day after day". And that was my mom, for me.

Michael Liben: 8:15

That's very much the same. Also, I think with human loss, a lot of times people come and they want to say something because they feel they have to. And one of the best things I think is just say nothing. Just be there for the person. And that's the best you can do. Because you're guaranteed to say something that's going to make somebody feel uncomfortable. But if you're just quiet, then the person who's going through the loss can say what they want to say or quietly bend the conversation in the direction that's more comfortable for them. So I think you're right about that. You said the tragic way in which you lost Wolfgang, I didn't know this. Do you want to tell us about that?

Erica Messer: 8:57

I always hesitate on how specific to be because I don't want to trigger anyone or invite trauma on them. But my friend killed Wolfgang. She opened and left the bathroom window open after we told her we don't do that. This was her first time in our house. And she did it anyway. And I said,"Wolfgang is obsessed with this window, it's our bathroom window, if we do open it, we just hold it. Let the steam out of the room and then close it because it goes out to the roof". It was in the morning. It was like the next morning she'd taken a shower. And I was straightening up because I was having someone come over and I noticed the window was just wide open and I was like -

Michael Liben: 9:35

Oops.

Erica Messer: 9:35

What, why is the window open? Okay, so long story short. Yeah, he was outside on the pavement still alive and couldn't walk. But of course, I tried to stay calm and got his carrier got an Uber and I had the emergency place to go and it was just like okay, I wanted to throw up the whole time. I was like, "This feels like a nightmare" but I just went into handle this mode. I don't even know what you call that. But he died thrashing in the carrier like, right as we got to the vet. So it was quite surreal, really. And I can't unlive that, I can't forget that. And I don't really want to, I think that's dangerous for my health. But I also try not to dwell on it when my thoughts go there and replay it like at night. And I just say, yep, that really happened. And I put my hand on my heart, I go, but I'm okay. And tomorrow's a new day.

Michael Liben: 10:31

Some of our listeners who are not pet owners are going to wonder why we are investing so much time and energy in this. In your case, I think, because you were there and you witnessed it, and, of course, these animals mean so much to us, they come into our hearts. You want to speak to that?

Erica Messer: 10:50

that we care and love. And I nursed him, he had eye herpes as a kitten, no one wanted him. And then to just boom, it's gone. And he suffered, and I had to watch him suffer, and I couldn't do anything, really changes a person. And pets, you know, I've had pets like Jute was part of our family. She was just always there, right? I mean, she was there from the time I had my first word, but she wasn't mine. And she didn't sleep with me. And she didn't rely on me, Wolfgang was my COVID companion, that's why I got him. I was with him 24/7, and I took care of him, he slept with me, that kind of relationship is different. I've never really had anything like that before. And I think it was the combination of it being the pandemic. And I would say that he's my heart cat. I didn't know what that meant, or I hadn't heard that term until I started looking into pet loss grief, and heard someone else say it. And I instantly knew - that's what he was, he was special in a different way. And I really look at it as I feel so lucky that I have the experience with him and the bond with him. And I hope that everyone can find a heart animal or heart pet in their lifetime, because it's it's such a beautiful gift. So to explain it, I can't, I think people that understand will have lost a pet and probably a heart dog or heart cat or heart rabbit and the ones that don't that's okay. But I think that, that pet loss grief really needs to be as valid as any other loss.

Michael Liben: 12:36

I think we can agree that a pet is not a child, a pet is not human.

Erica Messer: 12:41

Right. Right.

Michael Liben: 12:42

But I think we can also agree that the pain perhaps different is very real. And I only came to that recently, this past summer, when we had to put Laila down, she was 15, and it was clearly the end, and at the same time that we were making that decision, we were 10 and a half years away making that same decision regarding my daughter. And we were clearly in both places in time at the same time. Again, I want to be very clear on this. It doesn't mean that it's the same. But it does mean that it's very real.

Erica Messer: 13:17

And grief can be triggering, right? It can bring up unresolved grief or grief from the past. It's, I've heard a lot of counselors talk about cumulative grief. No one is taught about how to grieve. No one is prepared. There's no school that teaches you this. It's something we all have to experience and find those solutions to so it's been a strange journey for me, but very fulfilling, very rewarding and interesting.

Anna Jaworski: 13:45

You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me. If you have a question or comment that you would like addressed on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The opinions expressed in the podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 14:27

Erica, we talked about your experience with pet loss and how your mother encouraged you to use your talents to help others who are experiencing loss. Can you tell us about how you came up with your idea for Pet Loss Grieving Cards?

Erica Messer: 14:43

I think what I was looking for originally was just something really simple. The only thing I could really find were books. And so in talking with my mom, she said,"You know these one a day affirmation cards I think would be really helpful. I know a lot of my friends would like that. Why don't you just start writing down what you've got, and we'll all help you, we'll go through it". And it wasn't until I saw my own professional counseling, I needed someone to check in and tell me I was going to be okay or if not what to do. Once I learned that a lot of people that experience pet loss grief were having similar symptoms and side effects that I was, that was the real trigger to say,"Wow, this isn't talked about", I didn't know that. I didn't know that pet loss counselors existed until I needed one. And I've really struggled to find those resources. So it really was a shifting, a really turning point for me. And that's when I said, "Alright, mom, I'm in, I'm in 100%. I don't know how to do this. I don't know what's gonna happen. But we got to do something". So actually flew home the next week, and I just was like, a maniac on a mission, wrote out the cards by hand, and shared them with all my friends and family and decided to have them printed and fundraised, and I'm kind of fast forwarding through this part. But it really just happened on its own pretty organically. And I would just cry and burst into tears when people I barely knew were donating $500 towards the first printing, I couldn't believe it. Because I think we all have tried to do a lemonade stand or tried to do some kind of fundraising. It's like pulling teeth. So I knew we were onto something that people responded to there being a need for treatingnpet loss grief. The funny thing is, Michael, a lot of people thought I was making sympathy, like bereavement cards, like note cards. And they were giving money anyway. And when they found out what I was doing, they were like, "Whoa, I didn't even know that was a thing". And I said, "It's not, it's the first one that I can find", right? So it kind of gave me some momentum and some purpose and I think honestly saved me in a lot of ways.

Michael Liben: 16:55

I have to be honest, I didn't know until just now that there was such a thing as pet loss grieving counselors. I had no idea that existed.

Erica Messer: 17:05

I didn't either. But I really wasn't okay. And I had gone to a regular counselor. And she just wasn't relating to me, I didn't feel like she understood what I was going through, and I felt like I'm going to go a little deeper and dig around. And that's kind of how I found a pet loss counselor, which was kind of scary to reach out to and say,"Hi, I think I've lost my mind. Can you confirm?"

Michael Liben: 17:29

I can confirm, not knowing you very well, that I don't think you've lost your mind.

Erica Messer: 17:35

Well, thank you.

Michael Liben: 17:36

You're welcome. But I do understand, again, we have this thing here Friday nights, we sit down for a big dinner together. And we cut bread and pass it around. And my hand, naturally now picks up a piece and wants to throw it back on the floor where Laila is waiting for it. She knows when she sees us sitting together on the table, there's going to be bread. And for awhile, I've been going through this motion of sort of almost tossing to the floor but not actually doing it. And my daughter saw it she didn't like it, she said, "What are you doing, that just looks weird". But my wife understood because we'd been doing it for a long, long time when my daughter wasn't always around us. And it was because there's a habit that makes it real for us. It makes her there. And she's not there. And so we remember her by doing that. I think most people fall in love with their animals, I think their animals work their way into our hearts for a reason. But it's difficult to explain if you haven't been there.

Erica Messer: 18:38

Yeah.

Michael Liben: 18:39

And the loss is real, and the emotion is real. And I have lost both. You want to do something, you want to do a ritual, you want to do anything that makes you think of her. It's true.

Erica Messer: 18:52

I'd say drop the bread, just do it. Because she could be there with you in spirit. Why break your habit? Who cares what people think? You know, you feed her everyday, you walked her every day, to have that just stop abruptly is really jarring. And I know you can't, I'm not saying to feed her every day and take her leash out. But maybe go for a walk with a neighbor or a family member at the same time and try to make those adjustments gradual, and you can think about her while you're on the walk and speaking to really anyone who maybe they didn't plan to lose their pet, or even if they did, their, you're left with just this big hole. So I encourage people to forgive themselves, don't have any judgment, and I don't think we should have to explain our behavior because our life has just changed dramatically. The people that love you and really care about you will understand. They might look at you funny, like your daughter was like, "Why are you doing that?" But that's okay. Because what's important is that we take care of ourselves

Michael Liben: 20:00

Well, I think you're right about that. But let's drive back to where we were a little bit. Where can people find your pet loss grieving cards? Because that's the thing and they're wonderful. How do we get it out there?

Erica Messer: 20:11

Right? Okay, thank you. My website is wolfieswish.com. And not only can you get the grieving cards there, both in digital or physical form. But I've built out a huge resources page with all the things that I felt like I couldn't find that I needed. So I hope that people can go to Wolfies Wish and find whatever they need, including free downloads to write a love letter to your pet, or as digital sample of the cards. So there's a lot there, we have a private Facebook group, and the links are also to that, we have virtual counselling, and there's links to that. So I just say go to wolfieswish.com and dig around. And if you haven't lost your pet, or maybe you have a senior pet, or you just got a puppy, just bookmark our page, because there'll be a day where you're going to need those resources. It might not be today, it might not be tomorrow, but you will if have a pet or you know someone.

Michael Liben: 21:05

Yeah, that's the premise of the whole thing is that you're going to need this. And you know, upfront, you're going to need this. Now, did you beta test your cards? And if so, what's the response like?

Erica Messer: 21:17

I did beta test them, I did a small version, which was the handwritten ones that I showed friends and family. And then I went to my dad's house, did same thing, the neighbors, hey, read this. I kind of got down to a deck of 30 for the first month of grief of like that hard, hard month. So I printed, I think, 100 decks professionally at first, I really can't remember the number, maybe it was 300 I think it was 300. And those sold pretty fast, because I had done a Kickstarter. So it was kind of like a pre sale. That's kind of how that works. People paid and they're gonna get something. And those were gone. So then I went, Wow. All right, let's print more. Let's go and find a different printer. So it became this journey of, alright, well, that worked, and that worked. I don't recall changing the text that much, maybe just rewording things a little bit. But it's pretty much been the same text. And then I just designed different decks with that text. And I even license out the text to companies so they can design it however they want, put their brand on it, it's been quite a crazy ride.

Michael Liben: 22:22

I like that. It's, it's an original idea, and it involves the person who buys this. It's not just I buy it, and it's pretty I buy it, and I can use it. And I think in the future, this will be more common. I think people will get used to this idea and you've started something really big there. So thank you for that.

Erica Messer: 22:43

Thank you. That's quite a compliment.

Michael Liben: 22:45

That's what we do here. What do you think is the future of these cards? How do you see it going out?

Erica Messer: 22:49

Well, the cards have already been translated into five languages now. And those are getting tweaked because I'm not native, you know, I'm not a native Italian speaker. I think I see them being licensed so that pet food companies or veterinary hospitals can brand them to their own design and logo and colors and give them to customers, give them to clients. I've got pet boarding facilities using these, I really have just got into regular retail. So far I've been focused on pets, I what I really see though, is the change that's happening and validating pet loss grief. And that this is one solution to it. It really opens the door wide. You know, I've got coloring books now for kids and activity books and I've got all these plans. And so the grieving cards are the first thing, I don't really know how long they will be around I can't say, but I do know that they have been the gateway to treating pet loss grief and having solutions and talking about it.

Michael Liben: 23:52

If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website heartsunitetheglobe.org and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of Hearts Unite the Globe and Is part of the HUG Podcast Network. Hearts Unite the Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the congenital heart defect community to educate, empower, and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com for information about CHD, hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families, and much, much more. Erica, some people lose a pet and then they say they will never get another one because the pain of losing a pet is too great. Or perhaps they don't want to dishonor the memory of their beloved pet. How do you feel about that? And what do you tell people if they ask you?

Erica Messer: 24:50

These people are very aware of what's going on and I think that's great to acknowledge that. For me, I knew I wanted to get another pet and I didn't feel like I was going to do a disservice to Wolfgang, I think opening my heart again to love is worth the pain of losing another pet. So I actually waited three months and got two cats at one time because Wolfgang died, and a couple years before we'd lost another kitten, so I said I'm getting two ones for insurance and they're sisters, whatever. But I look at Vanilli every day, because I don't know, if she's gonna get sick. I don't act as if she's going to die. But I looked at her today, actually and I said, "You're gonna break my heart so bad". Wow. Like, what? "How am I gonna get through of losing you?" I hope it's a long time from now. But I just looked at her, and went,"You're just, you're gonna kill me". And I kind of laughed at it and went, alright, but I've been through fire before I can get through it again. And it's worth it. It really is.

Michael Liben: 25:55

I have to say, I think you already know, we had Laila for 15 years. And from day one, I knew this was coming. And it could have been 25 years, it could have been 125 years doesn't matter. When it comes it comes and it hurts.

Erica Messer: 26:08

Yeah.

Michael Liben: 26:09

That's a toughy.

Erica Messer: 26:10

Yeah, I don't have an answer for everyone. I think people have to do what's right for them. But I will say that over time, and knowing now that there are more tools to cope with grief than there were when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, you know, there are people that that's their profession now is to help you day by day, week by week get through it, then I think it's worth it. I think anyone can open their heart again.

Michael Liben: 26:37

I think the answer may be to explain to people, you don't have to get another one, if that's how you feel if you want to honor your first one. But if you do want another one, if you dare go in that direction, and you're worried about it, you know by now that a part of the ownership is also the loss. And it's part of the process, it's part of the whole spectrum of however many years you're going to be with it. And I'd have to accept it that that's just like being with people, right?

Erica Messer: 27:04

I was just gonna say that I think our pets want us to be happy. And I don't think it's a betrayal to open your heart again, to loving another animal and receiving their love. Because we'll always have our heart pet. Once Vanilli goes, I'm sure I'll be able to get another cat. And it's not to replace her. It's because I love pets.

Michael Liben: 27:28

That's fair.

Erica Messer: 27:29

Yeah.

Michael Liben: 27:29

It's fair. And it's a great way to be if that's who you are. I'm still divided over that until you see me walking another dog. I haven't really crossed that question yet. But my son, for example, is adamant - no more animals, we would dishonor the one we had. And I can accept that, I really can. Also, you know, some people might say it cheapens the idea that you can just go get another one. Again, these are all open questions that I think people have to face on their own. But they're real questions and they shouldn't be laughed at or, or in any way scorned because these are real issues. I know so many of my neighbors who've lost pets. The next time I see them, they have a new one. The first thing I want to say is, "You never learn?". But that is what they've learned. What they've learned is they need to have a pet. So if you're giving advice to somebody who's lost a pet, what would you say?

Erica Messer: 28:20

Well, I would say if you do decide to adopt another, don't expect them to act the same. Don't expect them to do the same things. And be sure that you're ready to give them love and receive their love because the worst thing you can do is get a pet and not love it. Or be resentful that they're not acting like Laila or Sadie or any of our pets. So I think just making sure that there's this time commitment too, to get to know each other. It's been two years since I've had Vanilli and now I feel like we know each other. It takes a while. Especially with cats.

Michael Liben: 28:59

With a cat, no doesn't take any time at all, you know exactly what your position is with the cat. You are the servant and the cat is the master, and you signed on to that that's on you.

Erica Messer: 29:12

She has these chirps, right. So a lot of cats are very vocal, and she's a very vocal one. And like, okay, come on into bed, or I'm going in this room and we talk to our pets. I don't know if they have any idea what I'm saying. But I know everybody does it. I'll be on the record for everybody and say, "Yeah, we talk to them...

Michael Liben: 29:29

Well, I don't know about cats. I know that dogs can understand up to about 170 words.

Erica Messer: 29:34

Yeah, that's true. Like I feel like I can communicate with Vanilli and I felt the same about Wolfgang. So there you go.

Michael Liben: 29:41

I think a cat can unlock the secrets of the universe. She just won't tell you.

Erica Messer: 29:45

That was hard and I thought astrophysics was hard. Yeah, you're probably right.

Michael Liben: 29:54

You spend your entire lifetime with that cat trying to figure it out. We'll never get it. Before we end is there something that you want to let us know that we should take away from this conversation?

Erica Messer: 30:05

Yes, that pet loss is valid and should be honored and respected. And the best thing that one can do for someone that has lost a pet, is to just show up and ask them,"How can I support you? I care about you, I don't understand what you're going through, but I want to be here for you". And that's, it's really simple. It's a complex thing, but showing up for people is the best thing we can do.

Michael Liben: 30:34

I totally agree with that. It's common practice where I live to put up notices when somebody has died. And then you're open for being visited for that period of time. Our neighbor downstairs, when we moved in, she had a dog, which she had had, apparently, almost 15 years. And when that dog left, she put up the same kind of notice, intended to look like a death notice of a person, because that's what that dog had meant to her and her family for that many years. And so, seeing the notice, we walked in and sat with her and comforted her as we would for somebody else. Again, I want to stress that we all know the difference. But at that moment, it matters less. What matters is that they're experiencing pain.

Erica Messer: 31:20

That's beautiful.

Michael Liben: 31:21

Erica, thank you so much for joining us on"Bereaved But Still Me".

Erica Messer: 31:24

Thank you for having me.

Michael Liben: 31:25

And that concludes this episode of"Bereaved But Still Me". I want to thank Erica Messer for sharing her story, her pet loss grieving cards, and her experiences with us. Please join us at the beginning of the month for a brand new podcast. I'll talk with you soon but till then please remember moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 31:42

Thank you for joining us. We hope you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".