You Make Your Path by Walking with Suzanne Anderson

Have you ever wondered how to navigate your life after a deeply personal loss? This episode brings you the deeply moving and inspiring story of Suzanne Anderson, a respected psychologist, author, coach, and transformational teacher. We delve into her intimate journey from a multilingual senior management consultant to an author and advocate for the bereaved community, after the tragic loss of her husband to suicide. Her candid recounting of their shared memories and the loneliness, shame, and stigma she faced as a suicide survivor will leave a profound impact on your heart.

Suzanne's story serves to remind us of the power of self-compassion and personal growth in the face of adversity. We learn about how Suzanne, dealing with the pain of her husband's death, sought solace in writing retreats, ultimately leading her to author her book, 'You Make Your Path by Walking'. Her experiences and her work with women to prioritize their well-being over others' will shed new light on how self-compassion can be cultivated, especially during the most challenging times.

We wrap up the episode with Suzanne sharing her journey to self-compassion and how her projects have been instrumental in helping others find their inner resilience. Her message of the importance of nurturing one's inner strength and connecting with authentic truth is one that resonates strongly, especially in today's fast-paced world. The conversation not only provides insight into Suzanne's inspirational journey but also underscores the importance of self-care and personal growth. Listen in for an episode filled with raw emotions, inspiring stories, and valuable life lessons.

Links to Suzanne's books:

https://mysterialwoman.com/you-make-your-path-by-walking/

Transcript

Suzanne Anderson: 0:00

It's sometimes very hard. And I think you have to be deliberate, and I certainly did, to keep choosing life when the one you love the most has died, has chosen to leave.

Michael Liben: 0:19

What happens when you go from teacher to student when dealing with grief? How can a wife handle losing her husband to death by suicide? When it feels as though you've lost everything, how can you come back from that? Welcome friends to "Bereaved But Still Me". Our purpose is to empower members of the bereaved community. I am Michael Liben, and the father of three children - Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel, my youngest daughter, was born with a heart defect, and later she developed autism and epilepsy. Losing her at 15 is what has brought me here to be the host of this program. Our guest today is Suzanne Anderson. Suzanne is a psychologist, author, coach, leadership consultant, and transformational teacher. She is the principal and founder of Mysterial Woman, a social enterprise dedicated to the awakening, development and support of women as integral leaders shaping a positive future. An early pioneer in the field of experimental learning, she led the way in using the outdoors as a classroom for leadership development, and was the co-creator of a highly acclaimed worldwide women's empowerment program in the 1990s. Suzanne was the founder of an international consultancy and worked for over a decade with Fortune 500 companies, seven of those years based in Paris, as a multilingual senior management consultant facilitator, speaker and leadership coach. Suzanne unexpectedly lost her husband when he died by suicide in 2012. She is a published author including her memoir, "You Make Your Path by Walking". Her life has totally changed since she finished writing her book and losing her husband. The shattering of her personality, and her life after her loss, has given her new perspective on life, and authentic living. Today's program is called "You Make Your Path by Walking" Suzanne Anderson. Suzanne, thank you so much for joining us at"Bereaved But Still Me."

Suzanne Anderson: 2:01

Thank you, Michael. Looking forward to our conversation together.

Michael Liben: 2:05

Let's start by talking about how you came to create a business for women, and how you were writing that book. Take us back to your life before 2012 and how you met David and what he's meant to you.

Suzanne Anderson: 2:16

I was a management consultant, actually, in the as you mentioned. And I was working in that those times with the senior leaders of companies that were in that big shifting from a more command and control, we could say more masculine model of leadership, to having to share power and learn how to communicate across silos and so on. And the few women that were at senior levels that I was working at were, were just stuck, and then become I guess what we use the term "one of the boys" like we we learned how to lead and I don't think this was a mistake, by the way. But we learned how to lead inside this more masculine model of leadership. But, but women are really suffering at the same time, and it was clear that there was some issue here, but they were the most resistant to what I was there to teach. And yet they were suffering. So what was going on? And it didn't seem like anybody was really addressing this issue, like what is it for women to develop in a way that is acknowledging of both their feminine strengths and their masculine strengths? So I began actually set up a private coaching practice in Paris, left my consulting firm and just dedicated to women. And it just feels like in a nanosecond, I think there were so many women that were suffering. And that took me back to graduate school because I realized I was sort of like one coaching session ahead of my clients in terms of understanding what was going on and into the field of specifically, developmental psychology. What is it for women to develop to the next level of their potential? And that was 10 years of work. And I put my programs in universities right from the very beginning so that the exploration of women and leadership wouldn't be stuck in some little eddy somewhere. And by the end of 10 years, we had really figured some things out. And my co-author and I were getting ready to publish what the, first book which is called"The Way of the Mysterial Woman- Upgrading How You Live, Love, and Lead." So that takes me to the end of 2012. David was, of that maybe 15 years of that research, he was probably 12 of those. Then I met him on the island that I lived on, which is just outside of Seattle, and I was at the end of a divorce myself and coming out of that life. And yeah, we met and it was the sense that I write about this in my second book that you mentioned, "You Make Your Path by Walking". There was a sense when I met him of having met my, and this strangely, like my best friend, or something like that he was so familiar. Yeah, it was, it was very special. And his really, his loving, and our partnership was a big part of the safe environment, I could say, inside of which I was doing this very exciting work with, in research with women.

Michael Liben: 5:21

Why were women suffering? Were they just trying to find their way, how to adapt into...

Suzanne Anderson: 5:25

The suffering was, they actually literally, you know, the saying in psychology, "What fires together, wires together". They literally wired together an identity that was based on these masculine ways of being, and they left really important parts of themselves behind in that process. And so the work that I then was doing with women and still very much do, have to do with really going back to that'What happened?' in there earlier, both family of origin and later in their own leadership journey. And what would it mean to to reconnect with those parts of themselves that they had put into the, into the dark closet?

Michael Liben: 6:07

David started having some issues while you were working on your business and your book. And what do you know, now that you didn't know then?

Suzanne Anderson: 6:14

I guess, well, one thing that is probably important to say, which I did know was that he, about three months prior to his death, he, actually, kind of came to me one day and said, "There's something going on in my head, I don't know what it is. It's like the screeching sound, and maybe I've broken something".... is some part of his psyche being broken or something. And we discovered it was tinnitus, which is a terrible affliction that happens to a lot of people, kind of unknown for many until, I'd never heard of it before until we started doing the research, and there's no known cure for it. So it's basically you have to learn to live with this terrible screeching. So he had that going on. But what I didn't know at the time, that I did come to find out later, was along with that was his business. And he had an Indonesian antique business based in the United States here in Seattle, but also a workshop in Java in Indonesia. And it was about to come down, you know, it was about to collapse. So he was propping it up in one way, or borrowing money here to get it propped up over there, and then it would fall down in another corner, as I learned after he died. And I do feel that the tinnitus kind of took away his capacity to handle this crisis. Because he wasn't sleeping, he didn't have the, you know, the capacity he'd had over the years to juggle a retail furniture business, I'd say.

Michael Liben: 7:44

Before we sneak in a quick break, can you share a special memory about David or maybe something special that the two of you did together?

Suzanne Anderson: 7:53

Hmm, I love the question. We had this incredible property and I write more about this in the book, but that he'd actually built by bringing over antique Indonesian homes and temples. So it was like you drive in through the gate down this long driveway and just see these a sort of a cross that were gardens that looked like Balinese rice fields, you'd see the top of Kudus Temple, which is a part of Java, this kind of mazing teak building, and then you'd see another little building off in the wetlands. And it was truly a magical magical place. And one of our favorite things and certainly mine was to host concerts or meditation retreats in these beautiful buildings and we did that often as an offering to the community so, people that we knew who wanted to do a fundraiser or something like that, or musicians that we knew. There was one in particular where this incredible musician from India came over. It was kind of a Ravi Shankar sort of guy, many probably know and, and with a tablas player, so he was the sitar player. But, oh my, it was just this amazing experience of being in a temple, we literally could have been sitting in India or Indonesia somewhere. We're about 300 people, both in the, some sitting in the space and some in the gardens around because it was an open air thing and they could listen to the music and the pitch of the music and the way that Indian music can go it was so beautiful and this incredible loving feeling I had with David and we had together to be hosting; to be able to offer this to the community is incredible.

Anna Jaworski: 9:49

You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like addressed on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The opinions expressed in the podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 10:27

You adored David and the two of you had a wonderful symbiotic relationship, then all of a sudden, something horrible happened at the very beginning of 2013. Can you take us through that?

Suzanne Anderson: 10:36

There was this exciting moment that I had mentioned where I've finished the manuscript with my co-author, for the first book,"The Way of the Mysterial Woman", we were also getting ready for a wedding, David's, niece, beloved niece, and then the son of his best friend, an Indonesian, were getting married, he'd introduced them, and they were getting married. We had just come from, on January the third - on January the second, I guess it was, from dinner with his sister, and all the guests from Indonesia, who were in Seattle, we'd had this wonderful night where you're sort of toasting the bride and groom to be and there was the sense of just all the new beginnings. I mean, I was about to run a program after a year of taking time out to write, this new wedding was happening, there was this incredible sense of joy. And David himself was just ebullient that night, he was like this, and he is, he was a very charming, charming man. And in that night, he was toasting everyone and love and the future and everything. That's the night of 2013 January 2, 2013. January third in the morning, I woke up and he had not slept well the night before. And had had the screeching tinnitus again in his head and was rather sort of with despair, I could say in the morning, and I leave, to leave the island to take a ferry into Seattle and work to get ready for the program I'm running. So I remember leaving him and the kind of tenderness of just really feeling, also the gap between where he was the night before, and where he was in the morning. And I reminded him that we'll get through this, we'll figure this tinnitus out, and we'll have happy hour tonight, together, and it's all gonna be all right. And we've got this beautiful wedding coming up in two days. And so that was my last conversation with him that morning, yeah, very tender. And I went off into work and then came home. And the first thing that concerned me was that I couldn't reach him, and during the day I had been trying to, I had been texting him because I was concerned because he was so down in the morning, I had just been sending him little love messages, which he would always respond to before and I was surprised that he wasn't responding. But, you know, I sort of wrote it off. And, you know, I think I'll leave the reader to read the story of what happened for me, but I'll just say that after hours of searching for him, we did find him and he was dead by suicide. And thus began, for me, a whole different phase of my life from the moment where I felt poised ready to sort of take flight really, with my professional life, and the work that I was doing and then even in our family with the wedding, obviously, it was a very different direction my life took after that.

Michael Liben: 13:38

Tell me a little bit more about being a suicide survivor. What kind of message do you need to share with the others about living after a loved one's died by suicide? Because I think for whatever reason, other survivors feel alone. They must know there are other survivors, but I think there's a sense of loneliness, and I think there's also a sense of of survivor's guilt, can you talk to both of those?

Suzanne Anderson: 14:01

I think there's a tremendous sense of loneliness that happens with this particular way of losing a loved one. And I think that's probably the very first thing I would say to anyone who was going through this or has gone through this, that is to remember that it is not your suicide. It's sometimes very hard, and I think you have to be deliberate. And I certainly did to keep choosing life, when the one you love the most, has died, has chosen to leave and to really claim your own your own life. And also, because I think there's often a lot of shame around suicide. I know David's case that certainly was there and he had written to me, so I got a letter after he passed away. And he spoke of his shame of what he was leaving and what was about to happen with his business and he just... and not having the strength to go through it. I know this partly from talking to people who attempted suicide and didn't complete it, that there is that sense of very often of shame of how I'm living my life. And this is an enormous suffering where the world just gets so, so small, there's just nothing but ending the pain that they're in. And so it's super important that as a survivor, you don't hang out in that suicide swamp, that is, the kind of characterized by shame. And that takes, again, some deliberate action. And for me, it, it was important to be willing to bring people in to bring community around me to not isolate myself, which is exactly what David did. Anyone who dies by suicide, has, in some way, isolated themselves. And it really would have just taken that one reaching out for a hand, one hand, but they can't do that in that situation. So for me, as a survivor, it was really important to do what David could not do, which was to reach out and to have myself surrounded in loving community.

Michael Liben: 16:05

Did you experience that sort of survivor's guilt, though, that, you know, if only I had.. or maybe that same morning, I should have stayed home? Little things that will plague you forever if you don't deal with them immediately?

Suzanne Anderson: 16:19

Well, yeah, exactly. I want to say that that's really the key thing. It isn't that I didn't feel some of the shame, and and it isn't that you won't feel guilt, because, of course, you will. I couldn't help but think about, what if I didn't go to work that day? Or how could I not have seen this earlier in all the ways that kind of walk it back to, you know, thinking, where where was this happening? And did I not see it? and, but very often, there is a real split between what they show you of themselves, and what's going on behind the scenes, they're very good at that. And David was very, very good at that. So there was one guy the night before toasting everybody and in love with life, and another guy who's clearly already planned his life, and there's a firewall, a very big firewall between those two, and you can't see that very often as a survivor, but you do have to work through the guilt. And that is not carry that as a burden with you your whole life. It's just like, yeah, if I had stayed home that morning, for example, I'm quite convinced now that it would have been the next day, or the next day, or next day, if somebody wants to do this and they have a plan, and they have really kept this division in their way of talking to you and what they're actually what's actually going on, you're not going to see it.

Michael Liben: 17:40

I think that's really important to get that out. Because I think a lot of people will eventually come around to that understanding, I think, because it's natural. But you have to really get this thing early. Because...

Suzanne Anderson: 17:51

Absolutely.

Michael Liben: 17:52

Survivor's guilt is just as horrible. And then you'd have to realize that sometimes things happen. It's awful. If you don't take care of it early, it is terrible.

Suzanne Anderson: 18:01

Right? And that was again, where I think you need help to do that. Right? You need you needed friends who remind you you need a therapist you need you need to be in community because left on your own those those thoughts can fester as you were saying, into something really, really difficult.

Michael Liben: 18:16

Your second book was, "You Make Your Path by Walking". Tell me more about that book.

Suzanne Anderson: 18:21

I certainly didn't start out to write the book, I really was making my path by walking. Could I live with the first book, "The Way of the Mysterial Woman" was all about, which is really this way of being in the world with whatever arises in the world that draws on all of my feminine and masculine capacities? Could I live that in this most difficult situation, you know, that I could have imagined? That was my first task, or thing, was to do that. And there was no guarantee. I mean, in one way, I had enormous faith in the unfolding of what I might call a friendly universe. I had a very deep and have a very deep spiritual practice. But in another way, I wasn't at all certain about the outcome because I've really lost everything, not just David. But because of the financial unraveling. I lost my home, my community, I mean literally everything in my outer world, I closed down my business. It was like someone who just erased my life within six months. I wasn't there. So the first thing was really just to, to live it live through this. And then about five years after David died, I knew it was time for me to write but not to write a book, to write for myself. I wouldn't, I took myself away on writing retreats for about a week, with it someone's beautiful cottage up in the San Juan Islands. And I just wrote for myself what happened. The self of that moment took my self at the moment when David died by the hand and kind of walked with her through those years that I'd been through, and I needed to do that, for me, it was very, very healing. And then after writing it, I showed it to the editor of the first book. And she said,"Wow, this you should be offering to others, this would be really helpful to other people who are going through through loss, and I think you should create this into a book". And so that was how that happened. That was about two years ago, I guess,

Michael Liben: 20:30

Not everybody would do that. Years ago, I came to a realization that you need a best friend. And you can be your own best friend. And you can guide yourself, and you can do these things and make it through difficult moments. Because there's always somebody there for you. Even if that person is yourself.

Suzanne Anderson: 20:50

I'd say Michael, that that's the, hit on probably one of the core concepts. Obviously, you've lived through in your experience, and that I've lived through in that I teach in the work that I do, which is this primary place of compassion for the self, for who you are, that self compassion, what it is to really be with you and with the you that's going through the life that you are going through. And I think that is sadly not very well cultivated. And a lot of us, especially as women, I think we're, I will say in the work I do, I see women very good at tending and caring for others. And not so good at tending and caring for the self, you know, and recognizing, wow, this is this is really, really difficult right now and giving ourselves the loving connection that we need.

Michael Liben: 21:51

If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website, heartsunitetheglobe.org, and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of Hearts Unite the Globe, and is part of the HUG Podcast Network. Hearts Unite the Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the congenital heart defect community to educate, empower, and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com. For information about CHD, hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families, and much, much more. We're talking about your book. And we know that you're also an entrepreneur and that you have workshops to help women. Tell us about your business now and how you're helping women.

Suzanne Anderson: 22:41

One way I can think about it is to liberate ourselves from the limiting beliefs that are encoded deep down in the DNA. I mean, literally from millennia of a more masculine paradigm of wholeness. And this wasn't wrong, this was how evolution unfolded. But in my view, and on the view of I would say, other futurists, we could say this moment, right now in time is a time when we simply need more of the feminine to be in balance with the masculine, we just can't solve the... Einstein says"You can't solve the problems of today with the consciousness that created them yesterday". And that's where we are we is like awakening this next level of consciousness. And I really saw that early in my, my research, and I saw the enormous shift that happened with women. When we would go back and do the work with, I call this work, that sort of trauma informed women's development because we're going back to the developmental traumas that happened when we were younger or even transgenerational, that were passed down through time through your lineage through things your, the people in your culture went through, and the ways in which those beliefs God, as I mentioned earlier, kind of hardwired. And so the work that I do, and I love to do, is to to help women turn toward those parts of ourselves that basically we, we had to and it was, we call this in psychology,"the adaptive child", the smart adaptive child, the wise child knew that, for example, if anger wasn't acceptable to my parenting figures, then I learned, okay, I gotta get love, safety, and belonging that is what I'm here I have to do that I'm, I need to survive. So the child learns to put that expressive voice in what Carl Jung called "the shadow", to just tuck that away, but it doesn't go anywhere. it's in the unconscious. So the work is really to start to liberate those parts of the self because we need them now. We need them now for this new consciousness. So it's very exciting work. I, this isn't what I would call self help, I'm not really interested in the trying to fix the self that we have now it's more the liberation of the self, the deep self. This is where I think those of us that are, you could say, called through life into the heat of loss in some way, have the opportunity, that's a very hot fire, I know from personal experience. And the way I hold this is, this can also be a real accelerator for change for the very thing I'm talking about here. In other words, it isn't just about how can I survive this terrible thing that's happened to me, this terrible loss, the end of one life, or one being I love, or whatever it is, or at my health, maybe? How can going through this actually liberate more of my authentic self rather than reduce me, that's the work that I do. And I'd say it's probably stronger and deeper work now than it ever was, because of what I lived through these last 10 years.

Michael Liben: 26:11

I'm a part of the Heart Family, the families who have children with heart defects. And I've said, since the day she was born, I said, her illness, her condition, what she has, which has necessarily been thrust upon us, it's something to deal with. It shows us who we really can be, it shows us where our strengths are, and how strong we never thought we would have to be. It's all in there. And I think that's the point that you're getting at. And I liked that because we're coming from two different angles, maybe. But adversity can really sharpen who you are, is that where we're going,

Suzanne Anderson: 26:46

Everything that is inessential, has the potential to fall away, right? The false masks, the ways of being, because you are brought so abruptly if it's or let's say dramatically, strongly, into the reality of of what is going on, and that when those masks fall away, and even in my case where my whole future fell away, because the path I planned with my husband and our estate and my company and everything else, that was gone. So what will come next? The opportunity here is if you can make your path by walking, which is the title of the book, you can walk somewhere, profoundly new. Now I like to think somehow that I could be the self I am today, without David dying, that he could have faced his challenges. And it would have meant a lot of things and our lives would have had to change and would have changed, it would have been hard. But I will also say I wouldn't want to give up who I have become, that is the opportunity. It's very hard to hear this if you're early in the moment of loss. Whereas it is all you can be in that moment is with everything that you've lost, I understand that. But what I think those of us that aren't in that moment right now can offer is that down the road, there will come and there can come a place where you can see the self you have become. And in a way, I want to say yeah, bow down to her, really honor her, aknowledge her, recognize the incredible being she has become and that will come as you are able to be with what is moment by moment through the process.

Michael Liben: 28:39

Well, we talk a lot on this program about post traumatic growth. And I think that is also why after five years, we changed the name of this program to "Bereaved But Still Me" because I'm still in there. I've changed but I'm still essentially me. And that hasn't changed. I may be expressing it differently, I may have found different strengths. But I'm not far far removed from who I was, I have just, I have have a newer and a better presentation of that.

Suzanne Anderson: 29:10

Or maybe we could say you've removed some of the veils or the blocks or the skin of the onion or something. So more, you first of all, because the first thing is you feel the connection to yourself more fully. I can say that for myself, I could say it's not like I'm becoming a new person in the sense of like, I'm still not Suzanne, what I can say is there's more of Suzanne and because there's more of me and because my heart through the breaking open, there's more loving of myself. There's also a way I broke into the world. I mean, I have more compassion and love and I would say presence with the people I work with or the others who are suffering in the world, it's like there's more of me available now. For the world.

Michael Liben: 30:08

That is a conclusion that you can come to. It's something that you can reach for. It's not readily visible when you begin. But you can get there. Now, where can we find your book, and what events have you got coming up during the coming year that we can maybe find you?

Suzanne Anderson: 30:24

Well, "You Make Your Path by Walking - A Transformational Field Guide Through Trauma and Loss". That's, I think, everywhere you can get books that's at Amazon. And, but I always like to say if you have a local bookstore, go to your local bookstore, and order it, I am a big supporter of local bookstores. Love that, you might do that. And on my website, which is "Mysterial Woman", mysterialwoman.com. There's a link to both books, and then a link from there to various sites where you can buy it, but you can find out more on my webpage about my own journey. And I actually even have some photos there, of the incredible magical world that I lived in with my husband and, and so I know people were asking me,"Wow, I'd love to see what that place was like". So...

Michael Liben: 31:13

I'm not sure I want to see it. Because it's so mystical and magical and perfect in my mind, that it might be a downer. I'm not sure.

Suzanne Anderson: 31:20

Yeah, yeah, it might be that so don't you know? I know that's the beauty of a book, isn't it that you can conjure your own imagination?

Michael Liben: 31:27

But you've described it so clear, why would I want to see a picture of it and ruin it? Yeah, of course. But, I still, I could understand it. What have you got coming up in the Fall of 2023. And beyond

Suzanne Anderson: 31:39

My new book just came out in June. So I'm gonna have a new program, which I'm super excited about coming out in October, at the moment, I'm calling it, "The Re-sourcing Sanctuary, and "You Make Your Path by Walking", and it'll be for women, and that kind of six sessions of, really creating the container that allows you to go through times of transition and loss. And I'm really excited about being able to offer that. I've had a lot of people contact me since my second book came out asking what programs they can do. And I'll have that coming out. And all of these will be available you can find out about on my website. So if you're curious about what I'm up to get on the mailing list, I don't send out things very often. But when I do, I think there's they're worth reading. And then you'll hear about all the events coming up.

Michael Liben: 32:32

What's a lesson that we can give people right here, right now?

Suzanne Anderson: 32:36

Hmm, I think I'll give you three things. The first one is this idea that if you can accept what is as is so hard at the beginning, because we rightly have this part of the brain that puts us in denial initially. And I'm all for that that's how our nervous system can get regulated. But as soon as possible, being able to go through that denial to accept what is because accepting what is prepares the ground for what might become later. And so this is a sense here of like, recognizing it isn't about, I just got to survive this thing and get through this and then get back to my life the way it was before, and I'll be okay. It's like no, this is you do not get this one day back, this one moment back. And can you just be with what is? And what I found my own experience is, if you can, you have more capacity then for what could potentially open up for you. And then number two is really, you only need to be able to see the one next stone ahead of you on the path. Like, that's you make your path by walking. sometimes when you've, you're going through times, like I certainly did. And I've lost everything behind me. And I have no idea if I'll even have a home or anywhere to live or any resources out ahead, it's just terrifying. And you can get way too far ahead of yourself. But if you can just stay close in like, you take the one next step close in. And that's, that's all you have to do right now is that one thing, but there is movement, you make your path by walking. I think when you're going through loss, you need to remember life is a movement and to keep yourself in that movement. And then the third thing and this is very specific to me, I think relative to David, but as long as you hold back forgiveness, as long as I did that, you know you hold back and your own freedom, but for those that are going through suicide, I think that's very important that could be forgiving yourself. Or forgiving the other.

Michael Liben: 34:51

Susanne Anderson, the book is "You Make Your Path by Walking". Thank you so much for joining us on "Bereaved But Still Me. It's going to take me a long time. to process everything I've heard here, I think your insights are deep and interesting and truthful. I'd like to say it's been a pleasure; I just wish the circumstances had been so much different for us meeting. But it's in some sense, it's been a joy talking with you, and I thank you so much for joining us on "Bereaved But Still Me".

Suzanne Anderson: 35:17

Thank you. Thank you, Michael. It's been a very rich conversation together with you.

Michael Liben: 35:22

And that concludes this episode of"Bereaved But Still Me". I want to thank Suzanne Anderson for sharing her books, her projects, and her experiences with us. Please join us again at the beginning of the month for a brand new podcast. I'll talk with you soon but, until then, please remember moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 35:39

Thank you for joining us, we help you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast, and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".