Widowhood, Wisdom, and Remorse

What happens when we lose our spouse after decades of being together? What is caregiver guilt and how do you recover from that? Why would someone decide to go from being a lawyer to becoming a creative writer?

Debbie Weiss is a writer, a former lawyer, and a widow. Her mother passed away when she was 42 and then her husband passed away in his 40s. Debbie and her husband were together for 32 years – they had been high school sweethearts. He was a huge part of her life and he wanted to protect her from his cancer diagnosis. Sadly, his choices meant Debbie became his caretaker while not really understanding the progression of his disease.

Debbie has written a book to help others who have experienced a devastating loss. Her book, Available As Is, is a midlife widow’s search for love. In this episode, she talks with Michael about loss, finding a new passion in life, and letting go of the things that were holding her back. 

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Transcript

Debbie Weiss: 0:46

What really helps after something like this is to sort of figure out something that's your passion, and then maybe figure out how to do it with some other people.

Michael Liben: 1:01

What happens when we lose our spouse after decades of being together? What is caregiver guilt and how do you recover from that? Why would someone decide to go from being a lawyer to becoming a creative writer? Hello and welcome to"Bereaved But Still Me"; our purpose is to empower members of our community. I am Michael Liben and the father of three children - Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel, my youngest daughter was born with a heart defect, and later she developed autism and epilepsy. Losing her 15 is what has brought me here to be the host of this program. Our guest today is Debbie Weiss. Debbie is a writer, a former lawyer and a widow. Her mother passed away when she was 42 and then her husband passed away in his 40s. Debbie and her husband were together for 32 years, they had been highschool sweethearts. He was huge part of her life and he wanted to protect her from his cancer diagnosis. Sadly, his choices meant that Debbie became his caretaker while not really understanding the progression of his disease. Debbie has written a book to help others who have experienced the devastating loss. Her book, "Available As Is", is a midlife widow's search for love. Today's show is"Debbie Weiss, Widowhood, Remorse, and Wisdom". Debbie, thank you so much for joining us on "Bereaved But Still Me".

Debbie Weiss: 2:13

Thank you for having me, Michael.

Michael Liben: 2:14

In addition to the loss of your husband, you experienced another significant loss, the loss of your mother. Can you share with us how old you were when you lost your mother and George, and what those losses looked like.

Debbie Weiss: 2:25

When I was 10. I was living in a lovely, pretty rustic suburban town in northern California. And my dad, one day said, we're taking my mom to the hospital, she developed an illness got worse in the hospital, and two months later, she died four days before my 10th birthday. This caused me to be a very cautious person, keeping a really good eye on my dad because, you know, a parent, as I learned, can vanish at any time. So I lived pretty cautiously, I went to UC Davis, a law school pretty near me, and married my high school sweetheart, George. We were together for 32 years. And then one day in, I believe, November of 2009, he came home from work, said he was going to the hospital and he was diagnosed with metastasized male breast cancer. He died a few years later, in April of 2013. And I was almost 50, we'd had 32 years together.

Michael Liben: 3:24

When you lost your mother, how did that affect your feelings toward your father? I mean, were you suddenly walking on eggshells, and how did that affect the rest of your relationship with your father?

Debbie Weiss: 3:31

It was hard because this was 1973. And it was a time when men weren't really involved with running a household or parenting. And my dad's actually a nuclear physicist, he's retired and still with us at 92 and a half. And at the time you know, he's his, his job was his work, he went he went to work and did physics and my mom took care of me in the house and the cat. So it was pretty, I think, surprising for him to suddenly inherit all of that. And naturally he was a little on edge and so was I. And it was also a time when if children appear to be functioning, the prevailing wisdom was not to talk to them about the loss. So I didn't get any counseling, nobody at school mentioned it. All I kind of heard was gee, you know, I wasn't doing so well in my math homework, and still hated PE. And I really didn't understand why all this is being swept under the rug because I was really very unhappy when that happened. Obviously,

Michael Liben: 4:30

Did that in any way prep you for future loss, particularly George?

Debbie Weiss: 4:34

Not really, probably due to magical thinking, and anyway I figured I'd sort of had this big loss in my life, I'd already lost the person I loved the most. It certainly shouldn't be happening again. So no, this was quite a surprise, especially since I live my life so cautiously. You know, there we were in the suburbs, he was being an engineer, I was being a lawyer. It's not like we were doing anything particularly risky so I sort of figured the evil fates would have had the decency to leave me alone.

Michael Liben: 5:03

The reason I asked is because he died far too young. And that was very distressing to see him decline without including you and his health decisions. And it sounds to me that's a lot what what happened with your mom, that one day, they just said, we're going to the hospital. And I would imagine that maybe there's a pre story to that you might not even have been aware of. So it seems that some of George's decisions may have something to do with that in the way you lost your mother. Is there a connection there?

Debbie Weiss: 5:30

Very much, so very much so. George really wanted to protect me. When we moved in together, George and I, we lived about 10 minutes from where I lived with my father. So we went to the same hospital for his chemo and other treatments, where my mother had died. So he really wanted to protect me, he knew that would trigger her loss, which I'd probably never dealt with particularly much, that wasn't really the style in 1973. So he kind of kept me out of his decisions and eventually, I think that urge to protect turned into a kind of denial. So it was very odd being excluded, especially because at that point, I was almost 50, I was a lawyer, and I was pretty competent. And I wanted to be involved.

Michael Liben: 6:11

So it seems that you became George's caretaker without a lot of prep, you didn't really expect this and you sort of backed into it. What are some of the feelings that you had there? Did you feel guilt or remorse, or were you just trying to learn everything overnight?

Debbie Weiss: 6:26

Well, at first, I was kind of shocked, it really got bad, he went into the hospital with pneumonia. And at that point, I started to really see how badly he was doing because he hadn't told me, and he never recovered after that. You know, he came home with oxygen tanks and all kinds of medical apparatus that I didn't know how to use. And for some reason, the hospital, probably understandably, thought that I knew was more involved. So I sort of had all these things to do and some other care for him. And since he was in denial, he refused outside care. So I was really worried that I was doing things wrong, and making things worse. And he was refusing outside care. He wasn't letting me use outside resources so I got very angry. And that left me with a lot of guilt.

Michael Liben: 7:09

When you say that left you with a lot of guilt were there those days when maybe you just shouted a little too loud or just, I mean, what what is it that triggers guilt? I know what triggers guilt for me in the way that I would care for my daughter and sometimes mistakes were made and, and there was anger all around. And then sometimes everything was great. So it's a moment that sort of triggers guilt. I have a few that I know of myself, personally.

Debbie Weiss: 7:30

I hate to admit this, but I started to yell at him. Not all the time, of course, but occasionally. The worst episode was having his parents over for Christmas and he demanded that we sort of stage things; we hid his walker, he put a cap on over his bald head so his parents didn't know all his hair was gone and I had to play along with this. I didn't know what to do. So I really got angry that he wasn't allowing his parents into this situation, in part because I could have used some help. And they wanted to help, when they found out they really wanted to help. And also because it wasn't fair to them, not to spend some time with them and let them into the loop. And then all the care I was exhausted and I was so stressed I got hives. So then I was on prednisone, which at least turned me into kind of an ogre it was like being just super amped up all the time. So that didn't help. But I had to keep functioning right. I couldn't spend all my time itching or trying to figure out what was going on. In modern medicine, you know, brilliantly, is like, well, we don't know what's wrong. Maybe it's menopausal. And it's like, well, my husband's over there dying in the next room, do you think?

Michael Liben: 8:35

So what to do with it, yeah?

Debbie Weiss: 8:36

Yeah, the whole thing. So it was really a mess. And I did yell a few times, and it's something I still grapple with, those memories and wishing I'd have done a better job.

Michael Liben: 8:46

I think you're right, I think a lot of those memories don't ever really go away. I'm still hoping that some of mine will dissipate, you get good days, you get better days but that's not really about you. I mean, it's about the situation that you're thrust into, that nobody asked for.

Debbie Weiss: 8:58

That's true and that nobody was prepared for. I mean, nobody's prepared for this stuff. It would have been great, in retrospect, handling it differently. And I tried, you know, sometimes to say, "Okay, we need to do this, we need to prepare that. And you know, some things he was okay with. We did things like get financial documents and wills and trust stuff in order. But somehow the basic stuff like let's talk about this, how do we prepare for this, let's be kinder to each other. Those kinds of things didn't really come up. He was kind of a workaholic so when this was happening, he lost himself in his work and he was sometimes very hard to approach.

Disclaimer: 9:38

You're listening"Bereaced But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like to address on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The opinions expressed in the podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 10:16

You became a lawyer when you were very young. But before George passed away, you started your MFA in creative writing, so already your mind was thinking outward. Why did you make such a dramatic change in careers from lawyer to creative writer, that's pretty steep?

Debbie Weiss: 10:28

I was taking a weekly writing class in creative writing when George was diagnosed, and I dropped that. And I wasn't taking it very seriously, you know, I was just putting in a few little stories about growing up with my dad, which actually turned out quite well. I didn't get an MFA until 2018 which was some time I'm after George had passed.

Michael Liben: 10:47

When you talk about creative writing, I know that my father was a lawyer, and people would ask him, "What do you need to do to be a lawyer"? And he used to say stuff, that's pre law stuff, it's garbage, what you really need to do is study English, you need to write, and you need to read, you need to write and write and write and write and write. So do you think that was maybe something that helped push you along was actually the lawyer part of you is saying I need to write, that it expands me in some way?

Debbie Weiss: 11:12

When I was a lawyer, my specialty or whatever was insurance coverage, and that actually involved a lot of writing briefs and things. So I always enjoyed the writing process. I didn't particularly love after a while writing about insurance policies, that's about as exciting as it sounds. I always did love writing and editing. So that's always been there, it was just something I kind of abandoned. After I finished college, I was an English major. And I got to enjoy that for four years, because I knew I was going to law school, but I never thought English would be employable. So my plan was always to go to law school and do something that hopefully I could get a job from when I graduated.

Michael Liben: 11:52

If my father were here, he would hug you that is exactly what you told people, you did exactly the right thing. And so imagine that from heaven, my father who's just about to turn 100 is now giving you a little, a little hug that you deserve for that.

Debbie Weiss: 12:07

Thank you.

Michael Liben: 12:08

You're welcome. We were talking about creative writing, and losing George roughly around the same time. Do you think that had a role to play in your own mental health while you were going through all of that?

Debbie Weiss: 12:18

Creative writing really saved me in two ways. One was that it was an outlet for my writing. At the beginning, I wasn't a very good writer or an accomplished writer and my thoughts were pretty fragmented. I had widow's brain, which I think fellow widows, widowed people, would understand. But it was a way to write things and, and put these down and get them out of my head and be able to look at things a little more, with a little more perspective. The other thing that helped was that going to a writing class, it was full of these wonderful people, mostly retirees about 15 years older than I was, and this fantastic creative writing teacher, and it was a community, it was lovely to be able to go to this nice tidy classroom and talk to these lovely people and hear their stories. And from there, a few of the more serious writers, who had a writing group that met Friday mornings, invited me to join. And so I found community and friendship. And I'm still friends and walk with some of these folks today. They helped me get my book out there.

Michael Liben: 13:21

Once you're under the stress, and the strain, and the anger and the guilt and all of that swimming through most of your life. It's good to have a little Debbie time. And if that's the way you found it, and then stayed with you for later on, I think that's a very good thing. And that's something that people can think about who are in a similar situation, that maybe they need some kind of creative outlet, where they're away from all of that, where they can just be themselves for awhile. Does that make sense?

Debbie Weiss: 13:45

It makes total sense. I think an outlet like that, even if it's not necessarily creative, is so important. You know, I also turned to yoga and hiking and sort of the best thing and part about these activities, was finding communities of people to hike with. You know, when I was widowed, and really lonely, I would meet up with this lovely hiking group on Saturday and Sunday mornings. And there were other people, a lot of them single, because they were out there walking, you know, relatively early, and people were friendly, and you were in nature. So I think in general, what really helps after something like this is to sort of figure out something that's your passion, and then maybe figure out how to do it with some other people. Especially in a group, because a group doesn't usually cancel, so you have something to look forward to. And that's really important.

Michael Liben: 14:33

One of the things I've talked about recently with some other guests is the idea of closure. I've always had the opinion that somebody who's lost somebody close doesn't really want closure, because we're afraid of leaving somebody behind. So what advice can you give to new widows or anybody who's lost a spouse, or close family member or even a close friend? What advice is there that we can talk about how to put things back together in a way that you're taking your loved one with you? And if not closure, then some sort of acceptance of the situation.

Debbie Weiss: 15:06

I don't think of closure, I think of integration. You know, I'm a big Carl Jung fan. So I think that work, integrating our losses, and sometimes that's into the same self that we were. And in the case of widowed people, I think sometimes that's into a new self. Because, like for example, in my case, I had been with George since I was 17 so I had to figure out kind of how to function as an "I" instead of a"We". I like to go hiking as opposed to we like to watch this TV series or whatever. But I think what people don't realize, in their despair,is that it takes a really, really long time to feel like any version of yourself again. You know, for me, and again, going through George's denial, it took me about three years to have a brain again, I mean, a functioning brain. I was writing, but all the synapses weren't there so it takes a really long time. And I think it's super important to be patient with yourself, and then also gentle with yourself, because part of the thing is I was, I'll use my verb"widowing", going through a loss, you know, kind of trying to make the house, mind, walking, going out into the world a little bit, not too far from home. But also judging myself very harshly, I'm not doing enough, this isn't enough, I'm not fit enough, I'm still too miserable. And I think it would be better if we kind of gave ourselves more leeway, and more understanding that it's going to be a while until we're back to ourselves, and that the self that we come back to or integrate might be very different than the self that we were before.

Michael Liben: 16:42

You know, there's so many things in there, I'd like to unpack, I'll take one or two. People have to find what's close to them, people have to find what they want to do, it isn't necessarily physical. Not everybody can hike, not everybody can do yoga, but find something, and find something that's in a group. I agree with that so totally. And I would use the word, I'm going to steal the word integration from you because I think that's the concept I've been looking for. For all these years, when people have told me what they do is they, they find a way to package up the grief and take it with them, what they're really doing is integrating the grief into their lives, which is a nice way of saying it because it totally eliminates the feeling that I might be leaving somebody behind. And it totally exemplifies the idea that I'm bringing somebody with me wherever I go. And I think it's tremendous. I think it's a wonderful thing. Also, what I hear from you is that people should be good to themselves, they should be kinder to themselves, don't beat yourself up, you're not going to bring somebody back by being upset or angry, obviously, you're going to be upset, obviously going to be angry. But that's not the be all and end all of who you are. You've said that so succinctly and so nicely. And thank you for that, because that's what I've been looking for, for myself to hear, for a very long time. So thank you for that. And I hope everybody listening gets that. Because if you can't be good to yourself, you can't be good to anybody.

Debbie Weiss: 17:56

I agree. I agree completely. People want us to get over our grief so quickly, you know, "Are you better? Are you over it? even "Are you dating again?" and you know,"You're still young, you're still healthy", which doesn't negate the grief or the experience of the loss.

Michael Liben: 18:13

No, not at all.

Debbie Weiss: 18:14

I think that's a big deal, too that leads us to be hard on ourselves. Because everybody's like, are you done with this? And it's like, well, it's not like I'm done with 32 years of my life. I think these expectations are ridiculous, and I think that makes it makes it even harder for grievers.

Michael Liben: 18:33

If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website, heartsunitetheglobe.org and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of "Hearts Unite the Globe" and as part of the HUG Podcast Network. "Hearts Unite the Globe" is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the congenital heart defect community to educate, empower, and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com. For information about CHD, hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families, and much, much more. Welcome back to "Bereaved But Still Me". Debbie, let's talk about your book, "Available As Is". Where did that come from? And why did you write that book

Debbie Weiss: 19:20

I wrote "Available As Is" because part of the book was about dating, which was kind of a shock. Because when I started dating in 2014, 14 months after losing George, I was 50. And I hadn't dated since 19 -, oh, since 1980, when I was a junior in high school when I was 16. And that's very different. And I think as older singles are kind of like we're available as is like older homes, right? We have our, our creaks, and our cracks in the foundation maybe. But there's also you know, some really great crown moldings.

Michael Liben: 20:01

Debbie, it's character. It's character. Old houses have character.

Debbie Weiss: 20:07

Yep, we're real estate, real estate with character. So that's where I came up with the title for the book. Actually, my publisher helped with that. But my original title was Widowlland", but apparently there's a dystopian novel out there with the same title that's doing pretty well. And I wrote the book to go through my experiences. I wanted other widowed folks in my situation, especially women, but can be men as well, who find themselves alone after a long relationship, on their own and in midlife when they never expected to be, to feel less alone. And I really saw that humor in it and the surrealism. And I didn't see other books that were kind of dealing with how flipping bizarre is to come out of this great love and this wonderful established home life, which was also very settled, into this kind of wild west craziness of being on your own and trying to date at midlife and in the present day.

Michael Liben: 21:08

That's a really important point. I want to hang on that just for a little bit. Because when I said before about people not wanting closure, I think that's exactly the moment when you can decide if you're ready to date again. We had a guest a number of years ago, very good friend of mine from when I was very, very young. And he was a widower, and he was just on the cusp of remarrying when we interviewed, and he said, I still love my wife very, very much. But that is a chapter in the story of my life that ended, I'm not going to lose that chapter. It's never going to dissipate or go away. But now I'm in another chapter. And I think that's a that's a decision point. That's a moment when people decide it's okay to date again, it's okay to go out in the world again, and I'm not going to lose what I had. Can you talk to that for a second?

Debbie Weiss: 21:57

I agree, I think that there's a timeframe, when you decide if you're ready to date. I probably went out there too soon, because my new self sort of self and the strength I needed to deal with this barrage of, I'll just call it, sensation. Sometimes negative energy wasn't really strong enough, then. But I do believe there's a time when you make that decision, and I don't think it's leaving your prior life behind. I mean, Margaret Mead certainly talks about different chapters in in life, with different partners, I think that can apply to this culture in this time as well. And the people, I mean, you don't leave the love of your life behind just because you decide that you want to have another love in your life. In fact, I think one can inform the other. One thing I found so disheartening, when I was dating is a lot of the gentlemen I met were divorced. And they were pretty bitter about love and relationships. And I was really positive about love and relationships, maybe not so much the fate, but certainly the possibility of having a long loving relationship. And as a widowed person, knowing that you've had that, why can't you have that again? And having that capacity and being able to share that with somebody else and have a beautiful life? Why is it that in part kind of honoring the lessons that you learned from your relationship, as opposed to denigrating it?

Michael Liben: 23:23

That makes perfect sense, I mean, a lot of anything has to do with the way you exited a previous relationship A guy who exits a relationship in divorce has a lot more, not only more baggage, but it's a lot of different baggage than you would have if you exited a relationship still in love. And it's different. I mean, the love is still alive in you and the love is a little bit less burning in the other guy, and I think that's something that we need to think about. Let's talk about your blog for a second. You've recently rebranded it from "The Hungover Widow" into a new name. So tell us about the original name and the new name and why the change. And if that represents some sort of change in your own attitude.

Debbie Weiss: 23:58

Well, I don't really blog anymore. I do newsletters, which deal with the issues I've talked about and other matters. And I changed my website to be a "Debbie Weiss - Author". Part of it is I'm not really a blogger, although I, as I said, I do newsletters and part of it, "Debbie Weiss - Author" is because I have a book and I wanted people to be able to find me by my name. And I feel like more of an author than you know, widow for me, at one--, for a few years that was all for me, you know, if you want,"Who am I?", I am a widow". That was really all I could talk about, even though I know sometimes people found that disturbing. Now I'm an author and widow is something I've done. It's something I will always be but it isn't my primary identity at this point.

Michael Liben: 24:42

You're not, you're not a professional widow anymore. And I think that's a good thing.

Debbie Weiss: 24:46

Right? Exactly, exactly. This is almost 10 years ago. And so "Debbie Weiss - Author" also promotes the book and the other things that I'm doing with that "The Hungover Widow" came up, well, honestly, when George died, I was pretty upset, so I was pretty big on Manhattan's hence "The Hungover Widow". And I also felt like"widow" seemed to have this sort of fake positivity to it. Widows are always sort of do gooders or else there's kind of the stereotype of the Merry Widow who's happy to get back out there. And I kind of wanted the hangover widow to show kind of the distress and the messiness that comes with this kind of loss and feeling kind of messed up. So I wanted to put widow, it's something that wasn't, that wasn't maybe so positive or appealing.

Michael Liben: 25:32

It makes perfect sense to me now that you explain it that way. So tell us about what you've learned over the years and living with so much loss and what advice you might have for others, living with losses. And let's talk about caregiver's guilt again, and the desire to allow love into your lives again. Because I think people sort of hit this malaise where they just, the whole world is this big, amorphous mass. And how do you make order out of that chaos?

Debbie Weiss: 25:57

Well, I'm a control freak.

Michael Liben: 25:58

That's good.

Debbie Weiss: 25:59

So, for me, that was limiting my world to being something small enough, I could control, you know, not going too far from home, when George died. You know, lawyer mode, paperwork done, the house was, you know, obviously had a lot of deferred maintenance, I was doing a lot to kind of make it habitable, and make it mine and make it a place that felt like a sanctuary. And then from there reaching out a bit slowly to other activities and other people, and kind of seeing what resonated and what made me feel less lonely. You know, sometimes, I had to learn that being in a group of people or doing something that ostensibly looks good if it was an Instagram photo or something. Not that the Danville Rotary necessarily looked good as an Instagram photo, doesn't necessarily combat loneliness, you know, you have to feel seen, it has to be something that feeds you. And so it was a matter of kind of finding some things like that.

Michael Liben: 26:54

In the moments we have left, I want to ask you about that transitional stage when you were getting into groups, and you're doing things for yourself and being kind to yourself. All of that's great, but then you come home. What happens at that moment?

Debbie Weiss: 27:11

Well, that was"The Hungover Widow". I mean, at one point, during the day, what came home was gardening and going to a yoga class or having a later dinner. But again, sometimes it was just the loneliness, it was bourbon, it was throwing my glass at the fireplace, it was not really being very happy at home. And then eventually, there came a peace, a sense of being at peace, you know, feeling grateful that George was at peace, and grateful for the time we had together and kind of looking towards what's next. But doing that all takes a tremendous amount of time, just like the dating step. You know, the book starts with dating, and it ends a few years later, just a lot of different pieces.

Michael Liben: 27:56

I can imagine it's very difficult. And again, you're into that question. You've reframed, saying, "Well, are you over this yet?" That can't help. So I appreciate that you've given us the time to talk about this. And I appreciate that you've talked about the transition from the loneliness part and to the more openness part because I think that's really important. I think people need to know that it can be done I think they can learn from your experience. So Debbie, thank you so much for joining us here on"Bereaved But Still Me". Thank you for being a part of the family and thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

Debbie Weiss: 28:27

Oh, thank you, Michael. Thank you for giving me a chance to to share with your with your audience.

Michael Liben: 28:32

So that concludes this episode of "Bereaved But Still Me". I want to thank Debbie Weiss for sharing her book, and her life experience. Please join us at the beginning of the month for brand new podcast. I'll talk with you soon, but until then, please remember moving forward is not moving away.

Disclaimer: 28:51

Thank you for joining us. We help you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear her podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".