Losing My Son; Finding New Purpose

On August 15, 2018, while traveling to a minor league baseball game, the unthinkable happened. Marcy’s car was rear-ended and her 14-year-old son was killed instantly. Marcy’s world, and that of her family, was immediately crushed. Marcy, a pediatrician, struggled to help herself and her family.

While looking for resources, Marcy was unable to find a podcast for bereaved parents. So she decided she needed to start a podcast to help parents who had lost a child of her own. As a pediatrician, she had dedicated her life to helping children but now she felt it was time for her to help parents whose children had died too young.

Marcy Larson is the Host of Losing a Child: Always Andy’s Mom. She is also a pediatrician and the mother of three biological children and one foster son. For more information about her podcast, visit her website, Andy’s Mom.com

Links mentioned in this program include:

Marcy’s blog and podcast:  https://andysmom.com/

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Transcript

Dr. Marcy Larson: 0:00

Everything changed and then you start to question your identity. Like, who am I? I'm not a pediatrician anymore. I'm not like a normal mother anymore. I feel like I'm like even a cruddy mother, like I can't do anything like I used to be able to do.

Michael Liben: 0:21

Welcome friends to the Sixth Season of "Bereaved But Still Me". Our purpose is to empower members of our community. I am Michael Liben and the father of three children- Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel, my youngest daughter, was born with a heart defect, and later she developed autism and epilepsy. Losing Liel at age 15 is what has brought me here to be the host of this program. Here with us today is our guest Dr. Marcy Larson. On August 15, 2018, while traveling to a minor league baseball game, the unthinkable happened. Marcy's car was rear ended and her 14 year old son was killed instantly. Marcy's world and that of her family was immediately crushed. Marcy, a pediatrician, struggled to help herself and her family. While looking for resources, she was unable to find a podcast for bereaved parents. And so she decided to start one of her own. As a pediatrician, she has dedicated her life to helping children but now she felt it was time for her to help parents whose children had died too young. Marcy Larson is the host of "Losing a Child - Always Andy's Mom. She is also a pediatrician and the mother of three biological children and one foster son. For more information about her podcast, you can visit her website, andysmom.com. Marcy, thank you so much for joining us here on"Bereaved But Still Me".

Dr. Marcy Larson: 1:34

Thank you so much for having me.

Michael Liben: 1:37

Why don't we start by telling us about Andy.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 1:41

I would love to. That's one of my favorite things to talk about. I think you ask any parent and they love talking about their children. And it doesn't change after they've died. It seems that people don't feel like they want to ask about them anymore. But I still love talking about Andy just as I did before. So Andy was my middle child. He, as you said, was 14 years old when he passed away. But he was kind of the glue to the family. He was always excited about something. His favorite phrase was, "Oh mom, I'm so excited!" He would be so excited about holidays and birthdays and excited about a meal that we're going to have. I mean, I remember the day he died, I picked him up from some orientation, he was going to his high school orientation. He was going to start at the West Michigan Aviation Academy because he wanted to be a pilot someday. So I picked him up and I he said, "Mom, I'm so excited!" And I said, "What are you excited about? Are you excited about your orientation today? Are you excited about soccer practice tonight?" because he had just been named a starter to the JV soccer team. And he said, "No, I'm so excited for the baseball game!" So just no matter what it was, he was excited about everything, just excited about life.

Michael Liben: 2:57

Children are like that. I love that.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 2:59

Just a joy to be around, you know,

Michael Liben: 3:00

I love that about children, everything is so new and everything is so fresh and everything is so "what's going to happen".

Dr. Marcy Larson: 3:05

And he would have really high highs though and really low lows. He was just super emotional. So, like, he'd hit a great golf shot and he'd be on top of the world and the next shot would be bad and he'd be like, "I'm the worst golfer ever." So he was kind of drove my husband crazy because my husband's a real even keeled guy and he was just all over the place. He was super talented at singing so if anyone wants to go to my website, andysmom.com You click on a little picture, you can see a video of him singing He has a beautiful voice. He was one of the head choristers for the Grand Rapids Choir of Men and Boys here in Grand Rapids, Michigan. So he had an amazing voice too. So that's kind of my boy.

Michael Liben: 3:45

I've clicked on that link and I recommend it.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 3:46

Emotional, musical.

Michael Liben: 3:47

Yeah, yeah. No, he's a surprisingly wonderful voice because, you know, kids are so all over the place and frenetic and his voice is just steady and beautiful. Really, I loved it. I - and everyone should go listen to that.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 4:00

I mean, he too was kind of an ADHD kid. So he was all over the place. He was like, constantly moving, except for a concert. I mean, when he was singing in a concert, he was just there. I mean, it was so into it and perfect. And his choir director didn't believe me that he would bounce all over the place and be like that, because that just wasn't him in choir. In choir he was just a different kid. It was pretty impressive.

Michael Liben: 4:27

We said in the introduction that Andy passed away following a car accident. I don't want to spend a lot of time there, but can you tell us how your life changed following the loss of your son?

Dr. Marcy Larson: 4:37

That morning, I was a practicing pediatrician. I had my three biological kids and one foster kid like you said, and then in an instant, it's just everything is changed and you don't even know who you are anymore. I tried going back to work right away like just a few weeks after Andy died, but it was so painful. I mean just seeing those kids and seeing whole families, all of that was just too much for me. And I would find myself going and seeing a patient and then I get the look, you know, the look you get after your child dies, that everyone just gives you this sympathy look. And you go in, and they're giving you the look, and you're trying to get through the visit, and you get through okay most of the time, occasionally I would tear up, but most of the time I get through it fine, then I leave the room, and I cry between every single patient, I go in, see the patient come up, and I cry, and go in, and see the next one and come out and cry. And obviously, that is not...

Michael Liben: 5:37

I can't imagine that's just got to be really tough, because there...well, you're a pediatrician. So they're all young kids, roughly the same age as Andy or younger.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 5:45

So for awhile, I couldn't see teenager, teenage boys, so please don't schedule me teenage boys. I didn't like to see brothers together because my boys were really close in age and super close to each other. They were 12 and 14. So my younger son, Peter was 12 and he was in the car to watch his brother die. And they were just together constantly, they did everything together. And so for me to even see brothers was hard. Soccer players were hard. You know, my son was a huge Michigan State fan. So anyone in a Michigan State shirt would trigger me, I just was like, trigger after trigger after trigger, everything changed. And then you start to question your identity. Like who am I? I'm not a pediatrician anymore. I'm not like a normal mother anymore. I feel like I'm like even a cruddy mother. Like, I can't do anything like I used to be able to do.

Michael Liben: 6:36

I want to ask you something about that, that doesn't come up a lot. You still were a mother, you had to be there for everybody, a son or daughter, the foster son, your husband, you still had to be a mother and you still technically were a doctor. So how do you balance that? Because you feel like you're not or that you can't, but you are. So how do you go through that?

Dr. Marcy Larson: 6:54

Yeah, that was really hard, because you just feel like I can't do anything well anymore. And I really did feel like I was going to give up the doctor thing entirely. So I went back for a few weeks, like I said, it was just really hard and emotional. And then I left I just took a leave of absence. And I didn't actually think I would be able to go back I said,"This is just going to be too hard for me, I'm not going to be able to do this anymore." Eventually I was able to you're right in that you just don't feel like you're the same person. I mean, I still have to cook dinner for my family, I still want to be there for them. Because as difficult as it is to mourn yourself, it's really, really hard, obviously, the hardest thing I've ever done. But almost as difficult and in some ways, even a little bit more is watching your children in pain. And watching your children mourn their brother, I mean, almost tear up now just thinking about that about how painful it was to see them in such pain and hurting so much. And it's just hard to know what to do, and they so desperately are trying to protect you. I think that's one thing that siblings do is siblings feel like it's their job almost to protect their parents and protect their mom especially. It's just really, really hard. It's hard to be a decent mom. I did the best I can. And that's the always what you say and when I tell people is that you do the best that you can for what you know at that moment in time. And it may not be the same 'best that I can' that it was six months before or one month before, but it's still the best I can do.

Anna Jaworski: 8:31

You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like addressed on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The opinions expressed in a podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 9:12

Marcy, let's talk about grief work. In the pre interview, we talked about how American culture doesn't allow people to openly grieve and how harmful that can be. Tell me a little bit about your experience in dealing with that kind of grief.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 9:24

That's a great question. People don't want to talk about grief, in general. It's just kind of a taboo subject, and especially when it's a child, like they don't want to talk about it at all. So they're quick to kind of ask you sort of how you're doing but they really don't want to know and they don't want the answer. And what I've noticed too, is that people then don't even bring up your child's name like they don't want to talk about Andy at all. Because they know if they talk about Andy well, then it might make her cry and I don't want to make her cry. So we're just going to pretend like it's not even there. So that's what in general, I think people do is they don't want to go into the dark space with you, so they just sort of pretend it didn't really happen.

Michael Liben: 10:11

I want to ask you, is it because they don't want to go to that dark place with you or they're afraid of sending you to that dark place and being responsible?

Dr. Marcy Larson: 10:17

I think that's it, I think they're afraid that they're going to put me there. And what I always say to people now, if you talk about Andy, and I start to cry, it's not because you made me sad. I'm already there. I'm already sad. The tears are just below the surface, and when you say something about him, and let me know that you care, well, then those tears may come to the surface, and you may see them but it wasn't it isn't because you made me that way. Right? It's because you allowed me to go there. And that's actually a relief. And it feels good.

Michael Liben: 10:53

I wanted to say a loud, thank you for that, really. It means also that, if you've asked me about my child, you've come in close enough that I feel I can talk to you and be open and honest with you. So if I do tear up, that's okay, that's part of what it's about. And it's not bad, and you didn't do anything. People don't always get that people always get that. But I think there's what's interesting is, I remember in a different conversation, somebody recently said something also that in American culture in the West in general, there is no real known method for dealing with that. And personally, I disagree with that. Because in the Jewish faith, we definitely have method of dealing, we've done a whole program here or two programs here on how to deal with that. And it's very guided, and the system takes you down, and allows you to go down as low as you want to go and then brings you back up all in the space of about a week. And then mourning can continue for as long as a year. But there's a guided process that helps you and keeps your neighbors close and keeps your friends close, and allows you to express yourself. So maybe what we're talking about in American culture is not it's not American culture, but there is something that is lacking, that used to be there, because I think it's normal that there would be a system to depend on your community. Maybe communities are atomized. Maybe it's not. Do you have any any any thoughts on that?

Dr. Marcy Larson: 12:14

I completely agree with you. I mean, I think about even being a pediatrician now. And everybody wants their kids to be happy all the time. No, you know, you always want your kid to be happy, you can be happy. But you know, your kids have to deal with the hard emotions. It's not natural for them to only be happy, we have to teach them how to deal with frustration, and sadness, and anger, and all of these emotions that are considered to be like negative emotions. People have to learn how to go through those emotions. And grief is not an emotion. Grief is an experience. Absolutely. When you have the experience of grief, you are oftentimes feeling 50 emotions all at the same time. I mean, you can feel so many different things. And it seems like now, especially so many of those emotions then aren't considered culturally appropriate and not good. Because you're just supposed to put on this happy face and act happy. It's just not right. It's not natural. It's not how the world is.

Michael Liben: 13:20

Well, you know what I think as humans, we're hardwired to want to be happy. This might explain why people who've lost a spouse would get remarried. We'd like to be happy, but in order to be happy, we have to understand other experiences. It's like you can't have good without bad, you can't know good if you don't know what bad is right? So we need to experience all kinds of things that are perhaps negative in order to understand what it is to be happy.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 13:46

I was just driving down the road yesterday. And I'm here in Michigan, and it had just snowed the night before. And the trees were beautiful, just covered in snow. And I thought to myself, Oh, I wish every day in winter could look like this. And the snow would stay on the trees just like that. And then I thought to myself in the next moment, but what I really appreciate it as much as I do right now, if it looked like this every minute, for four months of the winter, I wouldn't, I wouldn't appreciate it. So now that all the snows melted off, and now I see these brown patches on the yard and the trees are looking brown again. It just makes me know that the next time they're all white and beautiful, I will appreciate it more. So it's just like that with your emotions really.

Michael Liben: 14:33

On this podcast, we've also talked about how men and women grieve differently. Now both you and your husband are doctors, so can you tell us a little bit about how both of you have dealt with losing Andy. I imagine it's not exactly the same.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 14:45

Not even close. I said earlier that I went back to work a few weeks after Andy died and I went back at the encouragement of my husband because my husband went back to work maybe three weeks after Andy died, and it made him feel much better. He felt so much better. And that's why he was so encouraging me, like, you just need to go back to work, you just need to go back to work, you'll feel better if you go back to work. Because for him, it was very, very helpful just to get back in that routine and have some time away. Now they did shelter him, certainly, I mean, he's an anesthesiologist, and he did have to work on Andy and tried to secure his airway and did a lot of stuff to try to get Andy back, which obviously was unsuccessful, but they sheltered him and did not have him work on children for a long time. And they just were very, very particular about the kinds of cases that he saw. So that was helpful. But it does show how much different the two of us are. And I think men and women and one thing that my husband's done a good job of is, I think, being more vocal than the average man, about his grief. And so he has noticed that people now will come up to him and tell him things that they didn't used to, before we went through this experience. Just the other day, somebody asked how Thanksgiving was or to someone that was in the room. And he said, "Well, our Thanksgiving was really bad, actually, because my brother in law died unexpectedly last week." Well, I don't know that he even would have told the average person that but he felt okay telling Eric that because he knows the Eric gets that and he gets what it's like to have to live through a grieving holiday. There is one story that I did not tell you in our pre interview that oftentimes people like me to talk about. So when Andy was seven years old, he drew a picture at school, he was supposed to draw a family picture. He was this big piece of paper with a sun in the corner and a big tree and our family, right. And he was so excited to show me the picture. And he came out and he talked about it, the entire van ride home, and I'm going to unbuckle him and he's unrolling this picture. And I look at the picture and it has four people in the picture. And I said,"Andy, why are there four people in the picture?" This is before we had a foster son, so there were five in our family. Why there are four people in the picture? I said, "Who's in the picture?", thinking he left out his brother or sister, "Who did you leave out?" And he said,"Well, that's you and Dad, and Katie and Peter." I said, "But Andy, where are you? Why are you in the picture?" And he said,"Oh, Mommy, I'm not going to grow up all the way, I'm in heaven."

Michael Liben: 17:23

Oh my.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 17:24

So anyway, that was very comforting to us. Even on the night that he died. I mean, on the night that he died, my husband and I talked about that picture, and how he knew and how God gave us a little gift. Even though I'm quite certain if I'd asked him about that picture 10 minutes before he died, he would have no idea what I was talking about. But at least for that brief moment, he had known that, and he was totally okay with it. He was not upset. He was not sad. He was not angry. He was just like matter of factly told me that he was going to be in heaven and not grow up the whole way. And that's exactly what he did because he died when he was 14.

Michael Liben: 18:03

If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website heartsunitetheglobe.org and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of Hearts Unite the Globe and is part of the HUG Podcast Network. Hearts Unite the Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the congenital heart defect community to educate, empower, and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com for information about CHD hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families, and much, much more. One of the things that we've learned from doing this podcast for years is a term called Post Traumatic Growth, which is where someone has a traumatic experience but the person actually grows from the tragedy. Have you found that you've grown personally as a doctor from your experience? And how has opening up a podcast helped you in that growth?

Dr. Marcy Larson: 19:01

That's a great question. I feel like there's without a doubt I have changed and I have grown. That does not mean I wouldn't take him back in a second. But I mean, I would take him back in a second and go back and be the person who I used to be before. But do I think I'm a better person now and more compassionate now? Yeah, I do. Do I think I'm actually a better doctor now? I do as well. You know, I think back to when I started the podcast, we talked about how I didn't know of other podcasts and I was looking for a podcast and I couldn't find a podcast and there are several now but at the time, there were no podcasts for grieving parents at all that I knew of that were just for grieving parents and I couldn't find one. And so I decided to start one. And within two months of me starting the podcast, I was able to go back to work.

Michael Liben: 19:53

Really?

Dr. Marcy Larson: 19:54

When I started doing the podcast. I did not think that would happen. That was not the point. The point was I was thinking to myself, I was trying to redefine myself. And I thought, well, I'm a caregiver and I take care of people, I took care of kids and families and as a pediatrician, and I really couldn't do that anymore. But I thought, you know, what I can do is I can take care of bereaved people and bereaved families. So that's when I started doing the podcast. And I'm thinking, this is my new calling now. But by having a place to kind of put my grief, something to do with my grief, I found myself able to open up other areas of my life again, right. So originally, when I went back to work, and I would see a kid that had a fever for an hour and a half, I would think, why are you worried about a fever for an hour and a half? You know, I mean, this is that, do you know what I've experienced? My son is dead, and you're worried about a fever for an hour and a half, or you're worried that your kids aren't sleeping at night? But what ended up happening eventually, was I just had so much more compassion for parents. And I would think to myself, wow, they came in already, at this kids only had a fever for an hour and a half, they must be really worried. How can I make that worry better? And so it just completely changed, right? And my whole outlook changed. And I started thinking about how I can now bring them some comfort, and when there are things that are they're brought in for because honestly, do I see a lot of kids in the office that really don't need to be seen? I mean, I do a lot, right things that I look at them, and I can tell it in 45 seconds that you're okay. And you really probably don't need to be here. But I can be able to hear them, understand what the worries are. I mean, so oftentimes I ask the question,"What are you worried about today?" Because I want to know exactly what they're worried about. And then I can give a, b, c, and d, why I'm not worried about that, and offer them some comfort.

Michael Liben: 22:03

Do you find a conversion that sometimes you go into podcast mode?

Dr. Marcy Larson: 22:07

You know, it's hard to know, maybe a little bit, I would say maybe a little bit? I do. But it's hard to know, because they are very much the same. Me interviewing as a podcaster is not a ton different than me, interviewing people and talking to patients. It's very much the same. So I don't know that I'm going into podcast mode, or that it's pediatrician mode, because it's just kind of what I know, I'm this is just what I do. I do feel like I bring up different things, especially when I deal with mental health issues in teens, in a way and differently now that I've dealt with so much grief, I think I've dealt with more pain. And so teens appreciate that more and appreciate that authenticity, I think a little bit more. So I think I can be more helpful than I used to be able to be for that.

Michael Liben: 22:55

A doctor's examination is so much more about talking and listening than it is about touching and taking temperatures and all kinds of things like that. I mean, you have to do that, because the parent expects you to do that. But I would imagine that a large part of your diagnostic powers come from listening. And so...

Dr. Marcy Larson: 23:11

Way more than anything else. so often I would hardly need to touch them, I hardly would need to touch the patient.

Michael Liben: 23:17

There's a great convergence, I think between podcasting and in treating a patient in that it's all about listening and asking the right questions. So in the time that's left, why don't you tell us more about your website, your blog, your podcast, everything we need to know, where can we get it and what should we expect to be finding there?

Dr. Marcy Larson: 23:33

My podcast is called "Losing a Child - Always Andy's Mom", I put out an episode every week, I primarily talk to other bereaved parents. But I also have a guest that comes on regularly. She's a social worker, and a thanatologist, which I had not heard of before. But that's someone who studies death and dying, and really her entire career she's just worked with bereaved people. So she's an amazing resource. And we will pick a topic of grief and talk about it like anger or guilt, or who do I surround myself with, or topics like that. Post traumatic growth we've talked about. So a lot of different kinds of subjects, just that people can pick up tidbits. So we do that. I also occasionally will write in a blog on that website as well. So the website again, is andysmom.com. Anyway, that's kind of how people can find me, I'm also on Instagram, and Facebook and Twitter. So to all the different social media platforms, I don't love doing that part of it, but I know that it helps people to find me. And that's really the goal, right is to kind of help people in this process of healing. And then recently, I've been trying to work with physicians and nurses a little bit more and do some training on that because in the medical community...

Michael Liben: 24:49

Tell me more about that, because I think that's really super important for doctors, and some of them, develop more empathy. Tell me more about that. I like that.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 24:56

It's something that you're not really taught in medical school, at all about how to deal with people after the death has occurred, or even dealing with dying people. I remember thinking to myself, when I was in my training, I had several patients die, it was not unusual right to have children die. And there was one particular kid that I felt like I really messed up. Like, I really did it badly. And that was a girl who'd been in the hospital for a year she'd had a heart transplant. I knew her family well, I would hang out sometimes at night with the parents and we'd chat and talk because I would be on a lot. And I happened to be her resident physician, her doctor, when she died, and she died at like, five thirty in the morning, I was not there, I usually come in at seven, and the little girl has died. And I thought, okay, not gonna cry, not gonna cry, not gonna cry, right, because I gotta hold it together because I've always held it together. And I've now a third year resident, and I never cried, and I walked in the room, and I saw this mom, and she was holding her now dead toddler in her arms. And I started to cry. And she reached out, and we hugged holding her dead daughter between us. And we just cried just gently, I mean, not sobbing, but just gently cried. And she said to me, "Marcy, you're going to be a great general pediatrician." And I thought she meant you better be a general pediatrician because you can't handle this, you can't handle this, nothing at all and you did really bad. And this was horrible. And I did not realize until Annie died. So many years later, 16 years later, I realized that's not what she meant at all. What she meant was, you are caring, and compassionate, and love your patients and love your families, and you're going to be such a blessing to be their doctor.

Michael Liben: 26:53

I'm sure you are.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 26:53

And that's what she really meant. And that was, it was just profound to me, because I can't believe I didn't realize it until that moment. So what I want to do is to help people in the medical community say, It's okay to show your humanity because that's what you're doing. If you get a little bit emotional, you're just showing that you're human, you're showing that you care for them, you care for that loved one that died, they touched you in some way, you will remember them, you they weren't just a number, they weren't just a chart. And they were more than that. They were a real person that mattered to you.

Michael Liben: 27:30

That's super, super important.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 27:32

It is super important. And people don't know that people don't at all, I remember talking to another mom, who was in one of my support groups, and her son had died of a heart defect. And she said, she went back to visit on what would have been his first birthday and visited everyone. And she saw the cardiology fellow in the hallway. And the woman started to cry and she said, "Oh, I told myself, I wasn't going to do this. I can't believe I did this, I'm so sorry." That's the only person that this mom talked about. Because that's what mattered to her will matter to her is seeing that one doctor cry. Everybody else that didn't I mean, not that they it was didn't mean something. But what's the one that really mattered to her is the one who showed a little bit of emotion. That's the one that because she knew then that little her little boy mattered.

Michael Liben: 28:21

That's so true. And we all have stories like that. And this is not to take away from doctors in their medical ability, but sometimes if they would show a little more of themselves, it would be just that much nicer for the parents.

Dr. Marcy Larson: 28:33

I've seen people too, somebody on social media, not a few months ago, a doctor went on and said I had a rough night last night, I lost a patient, it had been a baby. And I think there was a neurosurgeon or something and didn't say a thing about the patient. Nothing. I mean, it wasn't like breaking confidentiality. It was just turning to clearly this guy wanted somebody to say, "I'm sorry, that's tough." And they got berated by other physicians on there saying, "How could you do that?" Whatever, just attacking him for showing a little bit of humanity. And I thought, and then what if the family would go on social media and see that you posted that which, obviously, they wouldn't be able to anyway, it was there no specifics at all. But I thought to myself, you know, what, if that mom did go on, and see that you wrote that about their child, they wouldn't be mad. They'd be like, "Oh, I'm so glad that he felt something" right. He didn't give any details, nothing at all. But I've just was so sad that that person was attacked. And clearly now he's going to feel like I can't ever do that again. I can't ever show, even to my colleagues, that this was hard on me.

Michael Liben: 29:45

That's an important takeaway. I think doctors need to know this. And I thank you for helping us to see that here and thank you also for the work that you do with them to help train and give them the other perspective. I'm only sorry that you got that perspective the way you did and I certainly don't wish any evil on any other doctor. But I think people who have gone through this are better at spotting it in other people. And it's important. So, Dr. Marcy Larson, thank you so much for joining us on "Bereaved But Still Me".

Dr. Marcy Larson: 30:19

Oh, thank you again so much for having me. It was really my pleasure.

Michael Liben: 30:22

That concludes this episode of "Bereaved But Still Me". I want to thank Dr. Larson for sharing her experience and wisdom with us. Please join us at the beginning of the month for a brand new podcast. I'll talk with you soon but until then, please remember moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 30:38

Thank you for joining us, we help you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".