Finding Meaning Through Loss

How can a bereaved father introduce his daughter to the world so that she inspires people who never met her? How long should a father grieve the loss of his precious baby? What methods can a person use to overcome the grief of losing a child?

Hans Kullberg is a father, an author, specializing in children’s books and parenting books, an entrepreneur, and a survivor. Hans is a loving father of 4 children – Hansito, Sofia Lolita, Aviva, and Liliana– and prides himself on being a father first and foremost, cherishing every moment of his fatherhood journey. His greatest pleasures of parenthood are bringing smiles and joy to his children and he loves watching them learn and grow.  His beloved daughter, Aviva, passed away on November 18, 2020, due to a still-unknown heart defect.  Due to the untimely tragedy of losing his daughter Aviva at 10 months old, Hans is motivated to share the beautiful story of her life, character, and personality through Baby Aviva Orangutan Diva and bringing smiles to children all over the world, creating a positive impact while turning sorrow into inspiration. 

Links for Hans:

Instagram:  @avivasdad
website: https://hanskullberg.com/

Hearts Unite the Globe is happy to welcome David and Ann Corbly as Patreon supporters of our nonprofit organization. Together, we provide educational programming to the congenital heart defect and bereaved communities. Don't forget to listen to their endearing episode about their daughter Kelly on the Bereaved But Still Me podcast.

Transcript

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Hans Kullberg: 1:29

I see you grieving, I feel your pain, I don't know how you feel, but I'm here to help. I'm going to go back to my house and I'm going to get a ladder and I'm going to climb down there in that deep dark hole of grief with you and sit with you in your pain and your suffering.

Michael Liben: 1:50

How did Hans Kullberg choose to memorialize his daughter? How has her death changed his philosophy of life and can post traumatic growth help us process our grief? Welcome friends to the 6th Season of "Bereaved But Still Me". Our purpose is to empower members of our community. I am Michael Liben and the father of three children; Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel, my youngest daughter, was born with a heart defect, and later she developed autism and epilepsy. Losing her at 15 is what has brought me here to be the host of this program. Here with us today is our guest Hans Kullberg. Hans is an author specializing children's books and parenting books. He is a loving father of four children; Hansito, Sophia Lolita, Aviva, and Liliana and prides himself on being a father first and foremost, cherishing every moment of his fatherhood journey. His greatest pleasures and parenthood are bringing smiles and joy to His children, and he loves watching them learn and grow. His beloved daughter, Aviva, passed away on November 18, 2020, due to a still unknown heart defect. The untimely tragedy of losing Aviva at 10 months old, has motivated Hans to share his beautiful story of her life, character and personality through "Baby Aviva Orangutan Diva" and bring a smile to children all over the world, creating a positive impact while turning sorrow into inspiration. Hans, thank you for joining us on "Bereaved But Still Me".

Hans Kullberg: 3:10

Thank you for having me, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here.

Michael Liben: 3:13

Start off by telling us about Aviva.

Hans Kullberg: 3:15

Aviva was a ray of sunshine. She had a zest for life. She was born in January of 2020. And she just eviscerated(effervesced) with a lot of personality, a lot of smiles and what I, one thing, positive thing that came out of the COVID pandemic was that we were all working from home and I got to stay with her a lot. And through that really developed a very close bond with her almost even more so than my other children. She was just full of personality full of adventure and also loved to eat. She had her father's stomach. And I remember one of our road trips that we went on that year, we picked a bag of cherries from a stand and we continued driving and she was devouring that bag of cherries in the back. And when we when we stopped the next stop, she had this big, basically red cherry stains all over her face. And she looked almost like Dracula or something. But that was just a little snippet of who she was. I mean, she just could light up a room. And she brought joy to so many people and still does to this day to me. And so that's that's really how I like to remember her.

Michael Liben: 4:18

She soundsike a very, very happy child and sounds like she had a very happy but short time with her father.

Hans Kullberg: 4:24

We just spent basically all day together and she would sit there with me by my computer while I was working and she would go down to sleep very easily. She loved her two older siblings, they were doting on her from the time that she entered into this world. In the hospital, they were just all over her. From the time she came out of the womb, she was very, very loved. And one pivotal thing that I'd like to say is love really never dies. And so that love that I have for my daughter and still continues.

Michael Liben: 4:52

That's absolutely true. We said earlier that she passed away following her sixth hospitalization, can you tell us a little bit about that?

Hans Kullberg: 4:59

On her ninth day of life, she was having a little hard time breathing, but also wasn't really eating too well. And she had woken up from a nap. We didn't really know what was off, but we knew something was off. She was cold to the touch a little bit and so we could quickly got her temperature it was down to 95 degrees, which were baby at nine days that's a very serious concern. And being third time parents at this point, we rushed her immediately to the ER. They brought her to the NICU they realized that she had bradycardia, which is essentially slow heart rate, her heart rate went down to about 60 or 70 beats per minute. And so that was very dangerous.

Michael Liben: 5:40

For those who don't know, what would be a good heartbeat for a newborn?

Hans Kullberg: 5:45

So at her age, usually around 150, 140-150, but she also had hypothermia as a sign of low temperature. And she was just having trouble breathing that, at times, and so overall lethargy, you know, not not sucking, not eating. And this after having, you know, been well for the very first eight days of her life. And so they did an extensive amount of workup even a spinal tap which is a lumbar puncture in her back to see if she had meningitis, had DNA tests and genetics, brain scans, etc. After a week in the NICU she had recovered by day three or so, fully, was eating fully and the doctors were perplexed. They said, "We really don't know what's wrong with Aviva but she looks fine with us now". And so they released her without any diagnosis, and with a plan to follow up. Eventually, she had the same bout, basically, she experienced the same symptoms about three months later. So this time, she's almost four months old and certainly more concerned this time because this is repeat. And we saw everyone from cardiologists, to neurologists, to pulmonologists to every single type of diagnostic X-ray, brain scan, heart scan, EKG. Nothing was obvious, and nothing was very telling. All of the physicians conferred with each other and they couldn't come up with any kind of diagnosis, why she was having these bouts, bouts of lethargy. And so that was just frustrating for us. It was the same experience, they let us go about five days later, again, with doctors scratching their heads and really no answer in sight. And so we continue to do more genetic testing, but she had another bout a couple months later. and then again, another month later after that. So by the time she was six months old, she already had four hospitalizations, didn't have a diagnosis, and at this time, we were kind of checking out the house to see if there's any environmental factors.

Michael Liben: 7:42

Well, that's interesting, did, I've never considered that as an option. Is that something that can happen? Something environmental?

Hans Kullberg: 7:48

Yeah, because they rolled out, you know, genetic, and her organs were working well, and neurology and cardiologists all said her heart's working fine outside of these episodes, and they usually happened right after her nap time.

Michael Liben: 8:01

And just as these things came, they left and nobody could explain it one way or the other.

Hans Kullberg: 8:06

lot more data in medicine. To a fuller extent, there's a lot of reasons behind that. I won't get into that now but in terms of trying to come up with a diagnosis, we realized we were just dependent on the knowledge and wisdom of all of these doctors that were in front of her. But we don't know, and we still don't know, if there might be somebody else else out there some other child that would have had the same symptom, same patterns, essentially, that we could have at least gotten a diagnosis. And, if not, a prognosis.

Michael Liben: 8:42

Outside of being the parent who does five minutes on Google and calls it research, you actually do research. Is there a way that you could have found out other data on similar instances? Or is it just not reported?

Hans Kullberg: 8:54

It's impossible. If you know a lot about, you know, the healthcare system with HIPAA with EHRs, which are electronic health records, a lot of that data is kind of stored and captured and not to be seen anywhere else other than those particular EHRs. And so even we went to three different hospital systems and and the data on her last visit, her sixth visit - and I'll catch you up to speed. So, we eventually moved from Oakland, to San Diego. San Diego, we thought, would be a fresh new start. There's no environmental factors, you know, that was the last thing we're kind of hinging our hopes on. For four months, she didn't have any episodes, I mean, every single time, in the interval time period, she was a perfectly healthy, happy, smiling, joyous baby girl. She was crawling, she was starting to kind of walk holding onto furniture, but, but then eventually, in November of 2020, she had another episode. Brand new team of doctors, this time in San Diego, which which has a really nice, really good pediatric hospital. But in terms of coming up with diagnosis, they were actually even having difficulty getting her records from Oakland, California where they had a different EHR. And so this was a painfully obvious flaw in the healthcare system. Doctors couldn't even see what her history was. There's manual, and you can fax, and different things, but it's not a very transparent system. And so she was actually released, even two days after, she recovered fully within, I would say ten hours, eight hours after being admitted to the to the ER this time. And so we thought this might be a recurring prospect in her life. At this point in time, five episodes, full recoveries after each time, we were almost to the point to the mindset of kind of saying this is something she'll have to deal with the rest of her life. But we know that it's not necessarily fatal. In all other circumstances probably the first one was the scariest at day nine. By the fifth time we're like, 'Well, this is something that we'll just have to kind of deal with and be on alert for', even though at that time, she didn't have a diagnosis. And so 10 days later, after being released from the hospital, she became pretty sick, she was throwing up so that was, outside of one other occurrence in her life, first time she was really throwing up vomit to that particular extent. The nanny who was taking care of the other kids had been sick with a little bit of flu so we kept her away. But we thought that maybe she caught a bug from a person inside the house and so we thought maybe this is just a kind of flu like symptom she's throwing up...

Michael Liben: 11:28

Just typical baby stuff

Hans Kullberg: 11:29

....and it wasn't really stopping. There was intermittent periods where it was stopping, but it became so much that she started throwing up her bile. And so we knew she didn't have anything else in her system and we took her to urgent care this time, we didn't even take her to the ER. But she, and she was kind of in fine shape, she wasn't displaying the same lethargic symptoms is last time. But for good measure, they rushed to the ER actually an ambulance this time and baby Aviva was recovering, she was she was eating a graham cracker, she was sipping on a straw of water, and we thought she would come back and then, all of a sudden, her heart rate just started dropping. They had been monitoring her potassium levels, if you know anything about potassium it's basically what they use in the syringe for the death penalty, it basically just stops your heart rate. The average range is something around 3.5 to 5.5, I forget the units. But in terms of the death penalty, it's usually around seven, if it gets to seven, it's almost fatal. Hers were approaching six, six and a half. And then all of a sudden, her heart rate just just started dropping down to this time 20, 10 and eventually stopped. She basically experienced a cardiac arrest, her organs just started shutting down, oxygen wasn't getting to the brain. They were performing emergency CPR, everything else that they could do, they eventually put her on an ECMO machine, which replaces the, basically simulates what the heart would do. But her heart just wasn't pumping. This time her potassium levels actually got up to as high as 12. It was the most agonizing, excruciating time period. I'd already been at home at this time, because we were there for about four hours and and mom told me go back home to take care of the other kids. And so I'm coming back to the hospital rushed back there and my wife is screaming in the ER and, and even at this point in time, even as dire as that situation was, I thought, there must be a hope there must be a way then. As soon as the doctor came out and said, 'her heart's not working', I just fell to the ground and just let out a scream and just the next 24 hours where we're just hoping and praying for a miracle staying with her in the hospital. They kept us there. Even with COVID and everything we were right there with our daughter but after about 20 hours or so they just said'there's nothing that we can do'. Her brain wasn't showing any kind of activity, her heart wasn't able to pump, and it's a parent's worst nightmare. And for all of those that have been there, it's just excruciating; excruciating to talk about, to think about. But they gave us some time with her after they took her off machines and we got to bathe her, we got to clothe her, got to sing to her, I was holding her in my arms. And I told her, daddy doesn't know what went wrong and what her diagnosis was, even at this point in time, but I'm going to do everything I can to make you proud, to make my Aviva proud. And that was my promise to her. Whether it's helping other parents that are going through something similar, making sure that this doesn't happen again, where this can be preventable. But, more than anything else, it's a promise to her that's really changed my whole perspective on life in terms of what's really important. And we talk about what is your ultimate goal, or what is the purpose of life, or whatever it is, there's big questions that are hard to answer. But for me, it's very, very simple. And at that point in time, it's still to this day, it's making my daughter proud.

Anna Jaworski: 14:54

You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like to address on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The opinions expressed in the podcast are not those of "Hearts Unite the Globe", but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 15:35

Hans, how did you come to write "Baby Aviva Orangutan Diva"? But, before you answer that, the burning

question: 15:41

Tell us about Aviva's name, make me happy.

Hans Kullberg: 15:43

Yeah, so Aviva's name is definitely very special to me. It almost sounds familiar but it's it's really unique. Aviva, it's actually a Hebrew origin name. It means springtime or rebirth or new life. It was actually inspired by one of my favorite books of all times, it's called "The Source". It's a James Michener book, it's about the Holy Lands essentially, in the whole history of the Holy Lands from all the Abrahamic religions, and there's a character in that book named Aviva and the more I thought about her name, I really loved it, loved the significance of the meaning. I also love the spelling which is a palindrome, Aviva, and when written in capital letters, it almost looks like mountains and valleys, and the 'A' and the 'V', and the 'V' and the 'A' represent almost symbolically the highs and lows of life and the challenges and good times and bad times that we deal with in life in and of itself. And obviously, I did not have any kind of foresight to really understand what would occur. But at this point in time, it's certainly looking back for me the perfect name, and for my wife, the perfect name for for Aviva.

Michael Liben: 16:51

I'm going to add one little thing to that. I think first of all, it's a beautiful name for a girl, it's so full of hope and optimism. In Jewish tradition, we say that your name is who you are, that names aren't accidental. And so the hills and the valleys and the trials and tribulations and the goodness and and the difficult times all together. Absolutely perfect name. Now tell us about "Baby Aviva Orangutan Diva".

Hans Kullberg: 17:16

Yeah, so "Baby Aviva Orangutan Diva" is a children's book, it's really inspired by my desire to really see her go out into the world and really make a positive impact on other people. Obviously, she's not here in person to do so. But for every parent, every father, and now share this perspective, I really want to see my children grow and succeed in whatever they do. But also, most importantly, make a positive impact on people around us on your community with your short time that you have here on Earth. And so, "Baby Aviva Orangutan Diva" is really one way that I'm basically getting a positive message across to children, to the eight year olds, that would have had the experience of really getting to know Aviva through the book, they're able to do so not in person, but through the messages written therein. And so it's got a lot of positive messages. But the overarching one is really being true to yourself. So it's about this orangutan that really faces off against a really ferocious beast of the jungle, this tiger. And she uses her own skill sets and her underlying strengths, which is really singing and dancing and bringing joy to others to really charm this ferocious beast, turn this tiger to the point where they're singing and dancing by the end of the book, I guess I gave away the ending there,

Michael Liben: 18:33

Spoiler alert if there's any eight-year-olds listening to this program. I think you're fine.

Hans Kullberg: 18:39

But in terms of how she does it, it's really the manner by which she carries herself and really finds her inner strength and peace and is true to her herself. And I think that's a message that, especially in this day and age, when we deal with a lot of mental adversity and a lot of different challenges, especially with our youth, it's really important to kind of remembering who you are and understand that no matter what challenge comes your way, even a challenge like this. There's ways that you can embrace that process. So -

Michael Liben: 19:07

That's very sweet story. I totally recommend it to anybody who has small children, get this book. Did you do the illustrations in the book yourself? Or did you have somebody do that?

Hans Kullberg: 19:18

No, I didn't. So I cannot take credit for that. I actually was able to collaborate with a former illustrator from Scholastic Books. His name is Carl Mefferd, and he's he's just done a really fantastic job and, and we really kind of work together on the paginations, illustrations, even the character, Baby Aviva the Orangutan Diva, herself. We had about five different iterations, which we went through and there's a lot of hidden meaning in a lot of illustrations. One is her kind of surfing down a tree in the jungle. And I always wish I could have surfed with her I do surf of out here in California, but just little things like that. There's a picture of a heart made out of leaves, but it was really cool to work with him. And then you know, for me, helping me through my grieving process, it's really helped me share her story and her light, her life, her love, with children. And being able to go to schools, being able to, even on Zoom calls, read to children, see their faces light up, see them dancing with joy, in the parts where they dance, brings me a lot of healing, brings me a lot of joy, you know, knowing that she can still have an impact posthumously. It's a gift that keeps on giving. And I'll continue writing we actually have our second book. I don't know when the release date is yet but it's complete. So we'll see. As you can tell, I love children and I love writing. But I really love telling stories to kids. Every every time I put the kids to bed at night, they always ask for a different story. And obviously there's only so many fairytales and children's stories so I ended up adlibbing and kind of improvising on the spot.

Michael Liben: 20:47

So a father can adlib a story at night?

Hans Kullberg: 20:50

I asked them for different characters. So I get race car and then I get a unicorn and then somehow make a story about race car and unicorn going through some challenging circumstance and then usually a happy ending.

Michael Liben: 21:02

If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website, heartsunitetheglobe.org, and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of"Hearts Unite the Globe". And as part of the HUG Podcast Network."Hearts Unite the Globe" is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the congenital heart defect community to educate, empower and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com. For information about CHD, hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families and much, much more. Hans, one of the things that we've learned from doing this podcast for years and years and years, is a term called 'Post Traumatic Growth', which is where somebody goes through a traumatic experience, but then actually grows from the tragedy and gets stronger from it. How do you feel that you've grown since you lost Aviva?

Hans Kullberg: 21:59

To answer that question, which is a very deep question -

Michael Liben: 22:03

We do that here.

Hans Kullberg: 22:05

First, one has to embrace the grieving process. First and foremost, I think you're making sure you take the time necessary to really go through the full gamut of emotions that you feel; the anger, sadness, the shock, denial, obviously, I'm listened to stages of grief, but there's no generic order. There's a lot of really, really visceral emotions that one feels after they lose their child and mindset mentality that I went into, it was really, I guess, I would say, do grief and really trying to embrace grief as much as I could. And that meant taking six months off of work. That meant seeing a therapist, that meant go into grieving groups, compassionate friends, being one of them, but church groups and others, reaching out to other people I know contacts of contacts that had lost children as well, understanding their perspective. Reading books, reading 30, 40 different books on grief and the afterlife. But I think the one thing that I would say, is really patience, being patient with myself and taking self care, which is one of the things my therapist was really harping on about, you know, making sure that I don't rush into things that I don't do too much. The guilt and the blame that that a parent feels, it's very natural.

Michael Liben: 23:18

Yes, it is. But please, people don't beat yourselves up.

Hans Kullberg: 23:22

Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard not to do I think the natural thing is to beat yourself up. And that's why I'm saying this itself in there. Yeah, yeah, it takes takes a lot of, I'd say time and cognizance of really trying to understand that, in order to heal. First of all, in order to heal, you have to feel. And in order to do that, you need to take that time and that space, you know, grief takes a lot of work. And I'm not saying that there's there's a right way, I'm not saying that I did it the right way. But what I would say is, there's 1000s of different ways to grieve, there's no right way, but there is a wrong way. That sounds different. But the wrong way is actually not necessarily letting yourself feel and actually just shutting it away and put it in, put it in a closet and not not feeling those emotions. Because from people I've talked to, books I have read, everything I've seen is really, if you don't deal with it, it comes back later in your life. And

Michael Liben: 24:15

How much of that do you think is societal? When it's hard. people say get back to work, get back on the horse, you need to run you need to work you need to do or aren't you over it already or stop crying. So how much of that is societal that we just don't know where to go? What to do?

Hans Kullberg: 24:31

I think in general society doesn't understand grief, period. And you don't really understand grief until you really know what it is. And child loss in particular, I would go out on a limb here and say it's almost the hardest not to not to compare any type of grief. But even my own mother said, I should get back to work and why am I taking so much time off, etc. And it's just, it's very frustrating. At that point in time she's putting her own perspective ahead of 'what am I really feeling?' And how am I really doing?

Michael Liben: 24:59

There's something normal about that, though, because people will talk to you from their perspective, some of the more kinder people will try to see your perspective. But in the end, we can only look at you through our own eyes. And people who have not been through this, who may run a short simulation say, 'Well, I would get back right away'. They might not if it really happened to them. But that's a real issue. Because you're interacting in this greater world around you that's got all this pressure on you to move. How do you stand up to that? I mean, you took six months off. That's amazing. How did you do that?

Hans Kullberg: 25:32

I definitely apply for medical leave of absence, given that I definitely was not in the mindset to go back to work. And at that point in time, everything else seems trivial. Nothing really matters. When it comes to hey, I don't have a child here. I don't have the future that I envisioned and how can I be doing something in the present now that that's just very trivial on that. But, so I was fortunate enough to work for a company that I got a couple of months off and then I took unpaid leave as well. But I just felt like I needed that time. Going back to your point about people putting their own perspective, rather than understanding the Griever with compassion and empathy. There's an analogy of the Griever that kind of falls into a well. It feels like this deep dark hole that you're down there and well and there's people that come along. There's two types of people: There's the first type, which is a more common type, they look down that well, they say 'how are you doing? Is there anything I can do? Be strong, you're so strong', right? I could go on about, you know, the phrases that shouldn't be said, but emote a lot of concern, and then they leave you in the well and never to return or check in again. And then there's the other type of friend. And I've really found some strong friends, it's been a very interesting reaction amongst my whole social circle. But, but there's another type of friend that comes and sees you down the well, and says, 'I see you grieving, I feel your pain. I don't know how you feel, but I'm here to help, I'm going to go back to my house and I'm going to get a ladder, I'm going to climb down there in that deep dark hole of grief with you, and sit with you in your pain and your suffering. And when you're ready, I'll help you climb out of that hole'. And those friends are few and far between, and that is the very, very special type of person. But I also think that it's the type of person that the world needs more of, in general, we need to really understand grief from a different perspective, and not something that you only have three days of bereavement leave or etc. It's, it's something that we kind of have to feel it, have to experience it to really feel it. But I think there could be a lot more education on grief in general. There's a lot of societies and cultures that do better jobs of it. The US in general, I would say is lacking in that knowledge.

Michael Liben: 27:48

I just want to say who you left out, the third guy who comes along and looks at you in the well and says, "What did you do?"

Hans Kullberg: 27:53

Yeah, yeah. Blame, the blame on a parent is never. Yeah, that is never a welcome. saying.

Michael Liben: 28:05

No, but it's everywhere. How did losing Aviva change your philosophy of life? Obviously, you're not the same person you were before.

Hans Kullberg: 28:11

It really kind of starts with what is my North Star? What is the ultimate thing that I'm going to do here on this earth.? And I would say, it was almost a rebirth for me in terms of understanding what's really important. So how I spend my time is much more valuable now than even before. And even though I cherished my children before and I really love being part of their development, it's something that I don't take for granted at all, day in day out. The hard days, the stressful days, the times that the kids are on the floor in a public supermarket and screaming and crying because they're not getting something or when they're throwing temper tantrums. Those are times, when as a parent, I step back and say, I'm fortunate, I'm lucky, I'm actually lucky that I get to deal with this headache with my kids. Because they're here, they're here I wish Aviva was here to throw a temper tantrum, I wish she was here to wake me up at three in the morning. Those things that you think, as a parent, are the nuisances of parenthood, they all of a sudden become blessings.

Michael Liben: 29:16

They're the things you miss when they're older. Trust me on that.

Hans Kullberg: 29:18

Yeah, you do not really understand that perspective until you kind of live through that. But what I like to impart to your listeners is that you do not have to go through, I don't want anyone to go through. But what I do want is to to kind of impart that perspective and really cherish your children.

Michael Liben: 29:34

So people can learn from your experience without having it, that would be a beautiful thing for you to give to them

Hans Kullberg: 29:40

Certainly, and embrace them with love. And so that's on the family side, and to how I spend my time, but I've had a whole complete different career change even, as well as being able to speak to you about grief. And really, in some small way, if this gets out into the ears of, of one listener, and they have a different perspective about grief, then that's a win for me. And that's my goal.

Michael Liben: 30:01

For sure, you made it, you made, you made them, I can give you one for sure.

Hans Kullberg: 30:06

Alright. Mission accomplished. But no, and that's part of it. And there's a whole number of different things, from children's books to these podcasts to --. But basically, even the simple things, bringing a smile to somebody, walking down the sidewalk and seeing a parent, maybe with a young infant, and giving them a smile and saying 'you're doing a great job' That is such a joy to me and something that I tried to kind of live every day.

Michael Liben: 30:34

And some of the other parents would appreciate it. Believe me.

Hans Kullberg: 30:36

Yeah.

Michael Liben: 30:37

We all think we're alone out there with our kids screaming and running up and down and making a scene and no, no, no. You're doing a good job. You're not alone. Before we conclude, because we've got to land this plane, tell me more about your website, and where people can find your book.

Hans Kullberg: 30:50

Yeah, my website is very simple. It's hanskulllberg.com. So it's hanskullberg.com. I'm actually most active on social media on Instagram. So this is a new thing for me as well, but it's a it's a way that I get to share my daughter with the world. And so my handle is @Avivasdad. So A V I V A S D A D and I say that because it's really important that I'm still known as Aviva's dad because I don't get to hear that very often. Those are the two places to really find me. And you can check out the book, it's on Amazon. It's on basically any kind of book outlet that you get your books. It has been a number one bestseller, and it's something that gives me a lot of joy, so if you really like it, feel free to leave a review. I hope you enjoy it with your kiddos or your grandkids or nieces or nephews. It's a labor of love and so I've put a lot of joy into it.

Michael Liben: 31:41

While we're coming into port, I would just tell everybody again, the book is "Baby Aviva Orangutan Diva". Get this book, read it to your children. And that concludes this episode of "Bereaved But Still Me". I want to thank Hans Kullberg for sharing his experience and wisdom with us. Thank you, Hans, for being with us.

Hans Kullberg: 31:56

Thank you, Michael. It's been a pleasure. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your show.

Michael Liben: 31:59

Please join us at the beginning of every month for a brand new podcast. I'll talk with you soon but, until then, please remember; moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 32:08

Thank you for joining us. We help you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at anytime. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".