When Faith Doesn’t Erase Grief

What pushed Kate Meyer into becoming an ordained minister? How did being a minister channel her into becoming a hospice counselor? What inspired Kate Meyer to write a book?

Kate Meyer is an ordained minister, licensed professional counselor, and author who is passionate about grief awareness. Kate Meyer strives for support for all people, specifically in the Christian community due to the miseducation of grief the Church has perpetuated. 

Kate Meyer is also an author. The Red Couch is her fiction novel that follows Toni as she embraces new life through the process of grieving her grandmother. Most recently, Kate has written a nonfiction book. Faith Doesn't Erase Grief is available anywhere you purchase books. She’s here today to share with us her journey from minister to counselor to published author.

Helpful Information about Kate Meyer:

www.katejmeyer.com
Facebook & Twitter: @KateJMeyer1
Instagram: @kate.j.meyer.author
Faith Doesn't Erase Grief will be available anywhere you purchase books beginning 7/12/2022.

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Transcript

Kate Meyer: 0:00

When we are grieving we have the same job of facing it, embracing it, experiencing it, not turning from it.

Michael Liben: 0:15

What pushed Kate into becoming an ordained minister? How did being a minister channel her into becoming a hospice counselor? What inspired Kate Meyer to write a book? Welcome friends to the Sixth Season of "Bereaved But Still Me". Our purpose is to empower members of our community. I am Michael Liben, and the father of three children- Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel, my youngest daughter, was born with a heart defect and later she develop autism and epilepsy. Losing Liel at fifteen is what has brought me here to be the host of this program. Here with us today is our guest, Kate Meyer. Kate Meyer is an ordained minister, licensed professional counselor, and author who is passionate about grief awareness. She strives for support for all people, specifically the Christian community, due to the miseducation of grief which she says the church has perpetuated. Kate Meyer is also an author."The Red Couch" is her fiction novel, which follows Toni as she embraces new life through the process of grieving her grandmother. Most recently, Kate has written a nonfiction book."Faith Doesn't Erase Grief" became available anywhere you purchase books in July 2022. And she's here with us today to share with us her journey from minister to counselor to published author. Kate, thank you so much for joining us on"Bereaved But Still Me".

Kate Meyer: 1:28

Yeah, thank you for having me, Michael, happy to be here.

Michael Liben: 1:31

Let's start by talking about your faith. What pushed you into becoming an ordained minister?,

Kate Meyer: 1:36

I kind of like to tell the story that I was more pulled, kicking and screaming instead of, I mean pushed, I guess, kind of works too but the image of myself really resisting. I went to college, leaning towards youth ministry and enjoyed that, I pursued that during college had internships that I liked. But I could not ignore this feeling in the sense that there was more that I was supposed to be doing. What I didn't know was the nuance of seminary, that there was something for me other than a church because the one thing I knew for certain was that I did not want to pastor a church. So I continued on and God and I battled back and forth. And finally I ended up in seminary at Western Theological in Holland, Michigan. And there over those three years, doors opened, and I was able to see paths of ministry that did not include pastoring a church. And that's when I started to really feel like I was coming into myself and I discovered healthcare chaplaincy and what it looked like to care for people, both staff and residents of long term care facilities, patients of hospitals, and use ministry in that context, and live into that calling. And that was a really gentle entry into ministry is what I would say about that. So yeah, I went kicking and screaming, but I know that it was 100% the right start to this journey to get me to where I am now.

Michael Liben: 3:23

By the way, you should feel complimented kicking and screaming is not unlike most of the prophets. Right? They were called; they did not want to go.

Kate Meyer: 3:31

Yes. Yes. So poor Jacob has a permanent limp because of it. So...

Michael Liben: 3:36

That's right. That's right. And we could talk about Jonah. Nobody wants to do this. Nobody wanted to do this. And I appreciate that. But you have spent some time ministering in a pulpit. I know that recently you have, you want to tell me about that?

Kate Meyer: 3:49

The reason I didn't want to be in a church is because I personally, when I look at it, I just see a lot of drama. And it's often where the hypocrisy is found. It's very judgy. I know. But I'm human, and so sometimes I'm judgmental, but I do a lot of pulpit supply. So when pastors are on vacation, or when a church is in transition, then I will go and preach. And I really enjoy that, I enjoy the process of putting a sermon together. I enjoy the act of preaching. I feel very close with God and the Holy Spirit in those moments. And it's a joy for me to do. And I'm also happy that I don't have to do it every week. So pulpit supplies is is a really lovely option for someone like me, who doesn't get to preach often. But it's a gift when I am able to.

Michael Liben: 4:46

You'd never consider doing that as a line of work?

Kate Meyer: 4:49

I don't think I would. I've seen behind the curtain too many times. I like being able to speak my mind and I can do that when I'm not permanently in a church. There's a lot more rules that need to be followed.

Michael Liben: 5:06

I definitely understand that I can tell you that also from a Jewish perspective, we have the same thing. A pulpit rabbi is not a joyous job. I was the president of a synagogue for two years. That's enough.

Kate Meyer: 5:17

Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. That's the behind the curtain that I'm talking about. Right?

Michael Liben: 5:21

Absolutely. Absolutely. So you said that you felt called to be a minister, even though it's not the career that you would have chosen for yourself. How difficult is it for a woman even in this time in history to be a minister? And what advice would you have for other women who feel called that way?

Kate Meyer: 5:36

Unfortunately, I feel like we're in another kind of ramp up against women in ministry. The positive within that is that those of us who are ordained are getting stronger in using our voice and bolder in speaking up to the call that God places on men and women. And so to women who are considering that who are sensing that that is a part of their calling, I would encourage you to pursue it boldly, surround yourself with other women, and with affirming men, because they are there, there are men who affirm women in ministry, they just sometimes aren't the loudest. And so we need to tune out the voices that diminish us, or shame us or invalidate us. And really listen for those that affirm and encourage and support.

Michael Liben: 6:41

I remember growing up in the US that women started to become ministers, I would guess, somewhere in the 70s in the mid to late 70s. I would assume by now that it's more common, and it's more on view, but I here views that is that that's not the case.

Kate Meyer: 6:56

It kind of depends on the denomination. So I'm, I'm a part of the Reformed Church in America. And we've been ordaining women for 40 plus years at this point. However, there's still a large branch within the denomination that does not refer to women in ministry. So it's, yeah, it's denomination by denomination. And then even within that, there just are groups who just don't actively seek it. And then there are some who actively remain opposed. So in May of 2022, I had the opportunity to be the first woman in a pulpit in West Michigan at a church who just never did before. So you know, 2022 first woman, so that just shows I think how much this is still a battle.

Anna Jaworski: 7:47

You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like addressed on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The opinions expressed in the podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 8:27

Welcome back to"Bereaved But Still Me". We're talking with Kate Meyer about Christian faith and also bereavement counseling. So let's delve into your life as a counselor. How is it that you transition from being an ordained minister into a licensed counselor?

Kate Meyer: 8:41

I was working as a hospital chaplain and a radiologist came into my office one day and just kind of dropped this large question in front of me that, as you know, purely seminary training, I did not feel I had sufficient knowledge or information to help truly support him other than, you know, just kind of a a blanket prayer type thing. And that that didn't feel right to me, I needed to be able to give him more. But that was the moment that propelled me to say, "I need to pursue more here". And so I earned my Master's in Counseling, and then through a series of internships and classes and all of those things, became a licensed professional counselor. And so I was doing both for several years. Private practice and then healthcare chaplaincy, and then

Michael Liben: 9:48

I've always thought that the two should go hand in hand anyway, I think being a minister or any member of any clergy requires at some point that you're going to have to give advice to somebody and you're not a psychologist in most cases. So I think that kind of training should really be required because it's going to happen. I know from other people's experience that those can be particularly difficult moments, you don't want to overstep your authority. And you're not necessarily counter. So I applaud you, because I think that's a great idea. Also, I think, being a chaplain in the hospital, you're going to be in situations where people are going to unload all over you all kinds of stuff that you had no idea was even coming. Does that happen?

Kate Meyer: 10:26

Yes, and I agree with you 100%. I think, too often, we ordained ministers can sometimes get in our head that we are trained for all kinds of counseling, and we're not, we it can get really dangerous if we go outside that line without proper training. And so I think it's really important to at least have a a good basic understanding of what counseling is, and how we can do it responsibly.

Michael Liben: 10:54

I think it's very important because there's a very thin line between counseling the soul, which is what people expect from you, and counseling the psyche, which often go hand in hand. And so again, I think it's important that any clergy should really have some extensive background in psychology, especially today. Now, working with people in hospice is, as we know, very challenging. So why did you choose to work there with people who are grieving and confronting their death, or the death of a loved one?

Kate Meyer: 11:23

One of the reasons I really fell in love with hospice work is because precisely of what you just named: that death is on the table. It's not the elephant in the room. You know, in in hospital chaplaincy everybody's just kind of dancing around it, like somehow we can't have hope for healing and be very real about what's going on. And you know, in hospice, we can do that I am able to journey with people to those very open, honest, raw, sometimes dark places. So on the chaplaincy side of things that was very appealing to me. And then when I had the opportunity to try bereavement counseling and experience that, that was the moment. I remember the first client that it happened with where I have this awareness of this right here, this melding of these two degrees, in this role is exactly what I meant to be doing. Journeying with someone, not doing anything for them, but going alongside of them, to go from utter darkness to light to learn how to embrace the pain, and navigate their way through it, instead of avoiding it and filling it with cliches.

Michael Liben: 12:45

Well, I don't think you can avoid it. I mean, you're in hospice. So you or someone you know, is in hospice, you can avoid it, it's in front of you have to look at it.

Kate Meyer: 12:52

Exactly.

Michael Liben: 12:53

So I have a very dear friend who for a long, long time was a nurse in hospice. And she used to say, I'm not a nurse, I'm a midwife to the next world. I thought that was very sweet. It was a very nice way to look at it.

Kate Meyer: 13:05

Death, doulas are kind of increasing in numbers. And that's what she was talking about.

Michael Liben: 13:10

She gets people for maybe a couple of weeks. And she has to sort of guide them and calm them and, and hold on. Only I think special people can do that. And I know this, because we had a minister early on in the earliest years of this program, who also started grief counseling in hospital. And he tells the story that one night he was waiting, a woman had died, and he was with the son and they were waiting for the father to the husband to arrive. And the son just looked at him and said, "How did you get such a lousy job?" - and I changed the word. But it's true, because you must be built differently than most people in order to be able to do that. And I appreciate it.

Kate Meyer: 13:48

Thank you.

Michael Liben: 13:50

Now we're going to learn about how you came to put together a book for the grief community in the next segment. But before we get there, tell me a little bit as a counselor what you believe people who are grieving need to know about the inevitable ending all of us face, our own death and the death of someone we love.

Kate Meyer: 14:07

I think it's the inevitability of it that needs our greatest awareness. That we don't need to live life always focused on dying. But we also need to be aware of it, to know that we can live life in a way that is full. And when we are grieving, whether that's loss from human death or loss of another kind. When we are grieving we have the same job of facing it, embracing it, experiencing it, not turning from it. So as much as we tell people, embrace life, live life, experience it to the full. That's what I think people need to know about grief, that the way for it to become less intrusive, is to make it a conscious effort to do the work.

Michael Liben: 15:03

I'm going to throw one at you from the side. When we first met, a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about that moment of grief where people maybe need a break from God. And you said, it's okay to be angry, it's okay to walk away from God for a while, not too long, for a while. Tell me more about that. Because I think that was the thing that really stuck with me when we first met that really hit me very hard, in a very real way, because I had similar conversations with myself when my daughter died.

Kate Meyer: 15:30

I began to recognize a pattern in my clients who identified as Christians. I live in an area of West Michigan, where there are reformed and Christian reformed, and Baptist, and churches just all over the places. And within that, there was this pattern of people coming and needing to talk about their grief, and simultaneously feeling shame and guilt for even grieving in the first place because they felt and believed, whether from something they observed or something, specifically a pastor, elder, deacon, someone in the congregation had spoken to them, that they weren't allowed to grieve; that they were simply to rejoice that their person was in heaven. And I heard it far too many times. And I needed people to see and look at scripture in a way that allowed them to open their eyes and recognize the examples we have of people being angry at God and questioning God and doubting God's role and just even questioning God's existence. And that that is okay. We don't have to put on this facade, God doesn't need that from us. And so that's where that comes from just a piece of permission giving to whatever you feel is okay. Let yourself feel it because that's how you move through it.

Michael Liben: 17:05

If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website, heartsunitetheglobe.org and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of Hearts Unite the Globe, and is part of the HUG Podcast Network. Hearts Unite the Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the congenital heart defect community to educate, empower, and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com. For information about CHD, hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families, and much, much more. Before the break, we learned how God called you to be an ordained minister, and how you felt compelled to minister to people through counseling. Now let's talk about your book, and tell us why you wrote your book and who you believe is the audience for this book.

Kate Meyer: 17:57

I wrote this book because it became evident to me, I think I always knew it individually that the "Church","capital C Church" doesn't do grief well. But as I became more fully immersed in the world of bereavement counseling and saw client after client and heard stories from my colleagues of their clients experiencing the same things of being guilted or shamed for grief, which is a very natural reaction, something that of course, is going to happen when we lose someone from death or, or something else. And so, to me, it is something that I think, just needed to be out there to correct this mistreatment of grief that is out in the church kind of in this broad focus. And so, the audience that I hope this book reaches is a multitude - active, current active grievers, those who are anticipating a death, to kind of prepare themselves a little bit. Those who maybe experienced a significant death several years ago and since that there are some pieces of that grief that still need to be worked out. But it's also for pastors, and teachers, and counselors. We can't all be experts on everything. In the book I refer to grievers and helpers. And my hope is that this book will provide the helpers healthy, affirming, empowering ways to walk alongside of grievers in a way that's not judgmental, in a way that isn't shaming, in a way that creates space for people to go wherever it is they need to go even if that means turning away from God for a season, however long that season might be.

Michael Liben: 20:06

Did I miss something? Is there something in Christian teaching that tells people not to mourn? Or are they being shamed because they might turn away from God for a moment and that changes the conversation from the point of view of the clergy? I mean, did I miss something there that I'm not aware of?

Kate Meyer: 20:23

You did not miss anything. I, I mean, that's part of the reason for this book is that, to me, scripture is so clear in its support of grief, I think the problem is we rush, Christianity oftentimes rushes to this end game of getting people to focus on heaven. Just, just believe in heaven believe and, you know, believe in what Jesus is doing. But there's this whole life on Earth that we are meant to live. And there are experiences that we have been created, to go through to experience, the good and the bad, the hard and the easy. And so I think the shame comes from this really misguided, misunderstood notion of heaven fixes everything. And while people, after they die are restored, and redeemed, and all of those things and their suffering is ended, yes. But we are still here, we still have to live life in a world that has been shaken and shattered. And so to pull someone out of that is just, it's just wrong.

Michael Liben: 21:28

So if I understand you correctly, the concept of people being in heaven and safe or even in the heart world we talked about, there are kids who are repaired, that might be comforting in some way. But we still have to deal with the reality here on earth of the people who are doing the grieving. Is that what gets missed?

Kate Meyer: 21:47

Yes, I think it comes out as either or, and it's meant to be both and. Right? That both of those things can exist, you can take comfort in what they're now experiencing. And you can deal with the pain that they are not here, in this world, living in your life.

Michael Liben: 22:08

I think it's really important to focus where the pain is, it's comforting maybe to think that somebody's in heaven. And that's okay for them. But I'm still here. And I still hurt. And I'm angry and I'm mad. Now, you said something, you teased something really interesting that there are biblical examples of people who turn away. And, I would assume, come back. Can you give me one of those?

Kate Meyer: 22:31

I think the psalms are really my my go to example of, you know, there, there are so many lament psalms that just are writers pouring out this,"Where have you gone? Why aren't you here? Why do my enemies succeed against me?" To me that is support and validation, straight from God that these things happen. God might always be with us, but we aren't always going to feel it.

Michael Liben: 23:00

Right. Absolutely true, absolutely true. You're right, the psalms are filled with stories of people who are angry. The psalms are attributed largely to King David and he often gets angry, and he wants to stomp around the room. But in the end, he comes back. And when he dies, and he charges Solomon to go on, he says, you know, always remember to be with God, and God is always there. And yet, he needed to do that. A lot of people on this program have told me over the years that we're talking about in the US at any rate, they don't know of any preordained or pre set regular way to mourn. And I think you may be right, I think what they're missing here is that stomping around the room, and being angry, getting rid of all of that.

Kate Meyer: 23:42

Yeah, there's a whole chapter in the book on emotions for that very reason. Because, particularly in the US, and I think within even more so I would say in Christian communities within the US emotional expression has been muted, to teach children to stop having temper tantrums, which, as an aside, I think is exactly what Jonah was doing was throwing a temper tantrum. Okay. So we teach children that you have to stop dropping to the floor and pounding your fists and feet into the ground and screaming, but we don't give them a replacement. We don't teach that it is okay to have those emotions. What we need to do is change the way you're expressing them. Don't stop expressing them, just change them to a way that's safer for all involved. And so, yeah, when you talk about stomping around, that's a really wonderful, healthy outlet. But that's where I think grief continues to get muted because we don't allow ourselves consistency with expression of emotions, for a whole host of reasons.

Michael Liben: 24:47

I get that I really do. I just want to go back for a second, by now everybody wants a copy of your book. So let's go back the book is called...

Kate Meyer: 24:56

"Faith Doesn't Erase Grief - Embracing the Experience and Finding Hope".

Michael Liben: 25:02

There it is. Perfect. And it's true; faith doesn't necessarily erase grief. We often, those of us who are people of faith, we will often use our faith, or work within our faith, in order to help embrace the situation, in order to create some sort of orderly understanding. But that alone is not enough, you have to really like, that you have to have a temper tantrum of one sort or another.

Kate Meyer: 25:25

Yeah, have to do the work is... not only does faith not erase grief, but faith does not excuse you from doing grief. There's work that needs to be done, so that you can be whole, and that you can continue to move forward in your own life and become who you are created to be. There's just no way of getting around it, we have to do the grief work.

Michael Liben: 25:46

That should be obvious to so many people. And one of the reasons I'm a little surprised by this is because in my faith, things are so much more organized. We take a week out. And we really work out grief with the community together, and it can go on for as long as 11 months, but in various stages, that help bring you back into the community. And maybe that's what's missing for you. I don't know,

Kate Meyer: 26:09

I 100% think that that is a big part of it. One of the scriptural examples I use is the story of Joseph going back to bury Israel. And the length of that journey in miles and days and the amount of community that is surrounding him. And here, we do things here in the States and in Christianity, I think in particular, unfortunately, which is supposed to be a really community relationship based religion. Somehow we do these things in isolation. We do the funeral memorial service of, celebration of life, whatever term you want to use. And then, you know, maybe there's a month or two of food trains. And then that's it, and suddenly people are saying,"What's the matter? Why are you sad?"

Michael Liben: 27:06

We already did lunch? Yeah, I get it. I get it.

Kate Meyer: 27:09

Yeah. Just pray, God will take care of it. Like what? No!

Michael Liben: 27:12

I want to ask you this, please share with us one important thing that you want us to know about you, your ministry, and your book, just one nugget, which people should take away from here.

Kate Meyer: 27:21

For me, it all boils down to this concept of hope. And what I mean by that is that even when things are really dark, there's a teeny, tiny, minuscule, pinprick of light that allows me to continue. That even when I don't have a clue what's happening and I don't know where God is, and I don't understand what the point of my faith is. That even in that, there's a sustaining cushion that doesn't allow me to give up, that propels me forward. And so, to me, that's what all of this is about is the people who are in the depths of their grief to come through to the other side of child loss and do a podcast that continues to, I imagine, at times put you back in that space. That to me is hope, that to me is you being able to say to other parents,"I somehow am here, and you can get here too, right?" and that, to me, is what this is about. The book, my approach to counseling, my fiction, writing, my blog, all of these things are about helping people find the things that empower them, and allow them to continue, which to me

gets boiled down into that word: 28:41

hope.

Michael Liben: 28:44

Kate Meyer, thank you so much for joining us on"Bereaved But Still Me" I am smarter now than I was a half hour ago.

Kate Meyer: 28:51

Thank you very much for having me. I love what this podcast offers people and I am grateful to have been invited on.

Michael Liben: 28:59

And I'm blushing I am. And that concludes this episode of "Bereaved But Still Me". Again, I want to thank Kate Meyer for sharing her experiences with us and how she feels our faith can help us through our grief. If you've enjoyed this program, I'd like to invite you to be a patron. For a monthly pledge you can help us continue to provide programming to the grief community, Just visit us at www.patreon.com/hearttoheart. Until next time, remember, moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 29:29

Thank you for joining us, we hope you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast, and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".