Losing My Daughter, Gaining a Bus & a New Purpose

How do you say "hello" to one child while you're saying "good-bye" to another? Why was going to sleep such a terrifying experience for Megan? What was the big lesson Megan and her family learned after Aria passed away?

Megan Hillukka is a bereaved mother, with 7 children, 6 of who are still here. Megan encourages and supports grieving mothers that though the worst thing has happened to them, their life is not over. Through her experience of the death of her daughter, Aria, Megan has learned tools and ways of shifting grief so that it can become just a little bit lighter, and easier to live with. 

Because Megan has done the deep work of grief, made space for her grief, and time for her grief, she now has room for joy, laughter, hope, and so much fun in her life. She will never forget her daughter Aria and they talk about her often as a family. She helps the moms she works with learn how to process and move through the emotions of grief and provides a place of safety and compassion with grief so that they too can feel themselves again and hope for their future.

Megan Hillukka is the Host of the Grieving Moms Podcast. She is also a homeschooling mom. She is currently traveling around the United States in a bus with her family and we’ll be getting into that more soon.

Megan and Michael talk about the loss of a child to the sudden unexplained death of a child, her post-traumatic growth experience, and why she's living on a bus.

Megan's Links:

Megan’s website: www.meganhillukka.com

Megan’s podcast: www.meganhillukka.com/podcast 

Free Grief Workshops: www.meganhillukka.com/workshop

Grieving Moms Haven Community: www.grievingmomshaven.com

Bus Journey

Instagram – @CultivatedFamily

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Transcript

Megan Hillukka: 0:00

When you haven't experienced grief, you cannot understand the depth of pain that you feel and the duration that it goes on.

Michael Liben: 0:16

Welcome friends to the Sixth Season of "Bereaved But Still Me". Our purpose is to empower members of our community. I am Michael Liben and the father of three children- Idan, Sapir, and Liel. Liel, my youngest daughter, was born with a heart defect and later she developed autism and epilepsy. Losing her at 15 is what has brought me here to be the host of this program. Here with us today is our guest, Megan Hillukka. Megan Hillukka is a bereaved mother with seven children, including one who passed away at 15 months, Megan encourages and supports grieving mothers and though the worst thing has happened to them, their life is not over. Through her experience of the death of her daughter, Aria, Megan has learned tools and ways of shifting grief so that it can become just a little bit lighter and easier to live with. She helps the moms she works with learn how to process and move through the emotions of grief, and provides a place of safety and compassion with grief, so that they too can feel themselves again, and hope for their future. Megan Hillukka is the host of "Grieving Moms" podcast. She is also a homeschooling mom. She is currently traveling around the United States in a bus with her family. And we'll be getting into that soon. Megan, thank you so much for joining us "Bereaved But Still Me".

Megan Hillukka: 1:23

Hi Michael, I am so excited to be here. Thanks for having.

Michael Liben: 1:26

Let's start with you telling us about Aria.

Megan Hillukka: 1:28

My daughter Aria was our third child, we had two boys and then a girl and when she was born, I just remember that feeling of it's so different when you have a girl after two boys and too, just my princess. I remember sitting there cuddling her and just so happy to have a little girl. She had hip surgery when she was one year old. And so when she died, she was learning how to sit up again, she never learned how to walk. She was learning how to do all of these things again, and I spent a lot of time with her in her last weeks of life even more than I usually would because I did a ton of therapy with her working with her trying to stretch her legs. And she was just such a happy, happy child. She beamed at everyone, smiled at everyone. Even when she was in her cast for six weeks after her surgery. She, like, it was not even a problem for her. She just sat on her chair and I gave her some food to eat or something to play with. And she just chilled I had a beanbag chair for her and she just sat there. She was just such an easy baby and for that I'm really thankful because I have only really good memories with her. Because Because she the way she was and because she died when she was so little.

Michael Liben: 2:50

When babies have to go through difficult things like that, I know my daughter also had the hip displacement thing. That's all they know. They don't know that it really should be better. They don't know that shouldn't hurt. So they're, they really roll with almost anything you toss them. It's very nice.

Megan Hillukka: 3:01

Yeah, yeah, that's how Aria was.

Michael Liben: 3:04

So she was coming back, and she was learning things, and she was learning how to sit again and she was moving forward. How did she die?

Megan Hillukka: 3:11

Yeah, she was 15 months old. I was also 36 weeks pregnant with our next child. And she died suddenly in the night that's called sudden unexplained death in childhood. I was the one that found her in the morning. And from that I had PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder. That definitely affected me going forward, but there's no rhyme or reason for how she died or what happened. It's similar to SIDS, but SIDS is like under a year. And once they turn a year, it's called sudden and unexplained death in childhood. And so I thought it was very rare, but it's actually a lot more common than you realize. I just never knew what happened, you know, wasn't anything that would happen until Aria died, I didn't even know it was a thing. And it's just something you don't expect. Our loss was so sudden, and we didn't have a chance to say goodbye, we didn't have a chance to like, expect it or know that this was going to happen. It just kind of changes your life. On one day, you're like I was the mom of three kids and the next day, I wasn't taking care of three kids anymore.

Michael Liben: 4:22

I can't even imagine what that's like, and I've lost a child. In our case, it was sudden and it was unexpected. But we sort of knew that we were under the specter because of all the things that she had gone through in her heart disease and everything else. This child was completely normal and completely healthy and just...I want to express that I'm so sorry for you. And I wish there was something that I could say or do that would make that go away. But I guess I really can't.

Megan Hillukka: 4:44

Thank you and I think that's the thing we know with grief is there's nothing that can change what has happened, right? We can't change that our children died and that pain and that loss there and that's just that's the very hard thing with it is there is nothing to say, there is nothing to to change. It definitely was a shock. And she was completely healthy. She was our healthiest child.

Michael Liben: 5:09

And to make matters more complicated, how close were you to having your next child when she died?

Megan Hillukka: 5:14

So four weeks after she died, I had our next daughter. And so it was really hard to I kept trying to wrap my mind around how do you say goodbye to one child and hello to another within such a short period of time, especially a girl. There's all that gaps of now, you know, my daughter, my next daughter, Brelynn, lost her sister, she never even met her sister. It was just really, really, really hard time. And then on top of that, with my trauma and the PTSD, my trauma and triggers was sleep, right, because Aria died in her sleep. And then I have a newborn who sleeps all the time, who wakes up at night sleeping, it was like, my trauma is in my face every second of every day where sleep is supposed to be a normal, healthy thing. We're happy when our kids go to sleep. That's where we grow. And, you know, so many things happen in our sleep. Well, all of a sudden, sleep to me was terrifying. It was terrifying for me to have my husband go to sleep, it was terrifying for me to have my other kids, my baby. It was just really, really, really hard.

Michael Liben: 6:21

You must have been terrified to go to sleep because when you're asleep, you're not in control of the world around you, you must have been a mess, even yourself going to sleep. How do you handle that?

Megan Hillukka: 6:31

It was very hard. I definitely didn't sleep. It happened a couple months later that my face started to go numb, I started to feel like I was losing everything about myself. And when my face was going on, I called my sister in law, I'm like, I need to go to the hospital. I don't know what's happening to me, I feel like everything's just my body's shutting down. And her two of my sister in laws came over and they just kind of took care of my family. And let me go to sleep and gave me some some ideas and little medicines over the counter drugs to help me actually fall asleep. And that was when I learned that I had to figure out ways to function and really deal with this trauma head on and really learn how to take care of myself and take care of my grief and my trauma because I didn't want to live that way. I didn't want to live in such fear every day, it was not a way to live, like the trauma, it was like this big huge ball of stress in my chest that was slowly killing me. Every single day, I felt like I told people, I had this ball of stress in my chest that was killing me. And I didn't know what to do with it. And so it was really hard and then trying to really grieve Aria, and then trying to keep all of my other kids alive and everybody else around me safe. I didn't feel safe. I didn't feel like the world was safe. Especially my newborn. If I wasn't holding her or if I didn't have my hand on her belly at all times, I was stressed out because I kept thinking, it only takes one second for them to stop breathing, and then they stop breathing and then they die. And so that was going over my in my mind all the time. Like I need to know immediately if she stops breathing so I can do something.

Michael Liben: 8:20

What are the statistics on that because I'm curious. Part of the reason I would worry is because I would think that there might be a genetic connection so that something happened could happen again, is that related or is that just part of the general malaise of the whole thing?

Megan Hillukka: 8:34

I'm not super into the statistics but with SIDS there is a possibility and chance that you could have another child die that way. I don't know about a CDC I don't know if it's ever happened. It not that I'm aware of it hasn't happened.

Anna Jaworski: 8:52

You're listening to "Bereaved But Still Me". If you have a question or comment that you would like addressed on our program, please send an email to Michael Liben at michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. That's michael@bereavedbutstillme.com. This content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The opinions expressed in the podcast are not those of Hearts Unite the Globe, but of the hosts and guests and are intended to spark discussion about issues pertaining to congenital heart disease or bereavement.

Michael Liben: 9:31

Megan, let's talk about your bus. You have a really interesting story about how you acquired that. Let us know that whole story because I think it's fascinating and a little humorous.

Megan Hillukka: 9:41

Yeah, we currently live in a school bus that we turned into a motorhome. That means we completely gutted it out, and the inside has a living room, kitchen, bathroom shower, six bunk beds and a bed and workspace for me and my husband. It was a dream that we kind of had for many years that didn't really feel like maybe something we could do or felt possible to do. But when Aria died, we really just learned that any of us could die at any moment, it felt very real that the rest of my kids could die, my husband could die. Until you experience death, we kind of live in this, like, that happens to other people. And when it happened to us, I was like, we're not exempt from future losses, we're not exempt from future death. And so I just really want to live today, I want to connect with my kids and my husband and really spend time as a family. And the bus kind of came out of that. I just was like, if I were older, and we never tried this out, we never attempted to do it, it would be something that I regretted. And so it felt monumental, um, it felt really impossible for us because my husband had a nine to five job. Like just all these things. We didn't have a bus, we didn't know how to do any of the stuff to make it happen. But I just really believed that we could do it and just kept taking one step at a time. And sometimes I still like like, I can't believe we're doing this. I can't believe we're, we've been on a bus for five months. Yeah, we've been on the road for five months.

Michael Liben: 11:21

Where do you find a school bus for sale? I'm just curious.

Megan Hillukka: 11:24

In Arizona, there was a bus dealership, they specialize in selling people school buses for schoolies. So we just went there other people find them on auction and stuff, but...

Michael Liben: 11:37

I can't believe they're even for sale. I also want I desperately want to imagine around the living room table, you have those old school bus benches. Imagine that.

Megan Hillukka: 11:50

I didn't want any, the only seat we have left is the driver's seat.

Michael Liben: 11:54

I made this joke the other day that you didn't get. And I'll lay it out there again. It's like the Partridge Family only on steroids. Because they didn't live in the bus, they only drove it.

Megan Hillukka: 12:05

Yep. We live full time. All the time. We have eight people in there.

Michael Liben: 12:10

Anybody my age, please leave a comment if you remember "Trolley Car Family". Because this is that story all over again, only real. I just loved it. That whole idea that you're in a bus, I just think it's good. And where have you traveled? How far?

Megan Hillukka: 12:26

We're originally from Minnesota. So we came all the way down through south through like Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina. We were in Florida for a month and a half. And then we came west and we're currently in New Mexico.

Michael Liben: 12:40

How does living in a bus and traveling the country and homeschooling your children on that bus, how does that help you cope with the loss of your daughter?

Megan Hillukka: 12:49

It just really shows to me that we can live, we can find joy, we can find purpose in our lives, even though I would not choose to have my daughter die. I don't want anyone else to die in my life. But it shows me that there is hope for life, there is hope for being able to be excited about the future. I think for a long time, I kept feeling like,"what's my purpose?" and I feel so joyless and empty like there's nothing left for me. But I really am very excited for my life. I'm excited to experience what we are having in that connection. And we talk about Aria a lot as a family. She is kind of like a part of our everyday she's just, she's not here, but she's very much a part of our family still. And so I think the death of Aria really brought home - and I think anytime you lose someone you love, it's what matters to me the most, what matters right now. And for us, that is family, that is our faith, and that is our friends, and really spending time with those relationships and connections.

Michael Liben: 14:02

When you think about that her death was the impetus for doing this, you have to imagine that her presence is probably very, very real inside that bus. I mean, if not for that event, you wouldn't be there, you know, be home someplace and kids would go to school someplace and everything would be, and I hate the word, but everything would be more normal. But, it's not and her presence I think is is overarching all of that. Am I right?

Megan Hillukka: 14:30

Yeah, I think that's how your life changes. And how you can imagine where your life would go and then somebody you love dies and all of a sudden a whole different path of life has opened up for us. I feel like I've always had that want and need for connection with my husband and my kids but I feel like this put it on an extra level of like, are we making sure we say that we want that. We're using our words to say that but do we live that do we want that? And do we make sure we have that in our lives?

Michael Liben: 15:03

Let's talk a little bit about faith? And what role does your faith play in how you've been dealing with all of this, and Aria's life and death.

Megan Hillukka: 15:11

For me, my faith has been important. Sometimes we think, after someone dies, if you had enough faith, or if you have enough faith, you should be able to immediately be like,"Okay, that's what was meant to happen, that's how it's supposed to be". For a lot of us, maybe not all of us, but for me, it took me a while to be able to believe that. There's a phrase that I've heard that, in my mind, I know that that's true. That's what I believe. But in my heart, I'm not ready to believe that yet. And I don't have that capacity to believe it yet. And I think there's a time to grieve and to really sit with that emotion and that pain and that, wondering why and why did this happen. And now, after I've done all that work, I do have acceptance and peace, that that was Aria's life and that was meant to happen. That doesn't mean I'm happy it happened or that, like, I'm grateful that it happened. But I've accepted that that is how it was meant to go. And that is how it did happen. And I have a peace with that. And for me, I do believe in heaven, and I do believe that she's there. And so I feel like I have an anchor, I have an anchor that is guiding me to heaven to keep my faith and to keep me going in the way that I want to go.

Michael Liben: 16:27

We've talked about faith many times here. But I think it's true that there are different kinds of faith. And eventually, when you come to an understanding that, whether I like it or not, this is how things are and I accept that, then I think you have a platform from which you can move forward. And by moving forward, I mean, progressing, but keeping your loved one with you keeping Aria with you all the time, and never stopping really to grieve her but to grieve her in a way that is meaningful and doesn't hold you back from the rest of your life. And I think you've proven that by literally getting on a bus and just going everywhere.

Megan Hillukka: 17:01

I'm just really grateful for where I am. What I want people to hear is it it doesn't just happen. I don't believe that I just got to where I am and being able to accept it just because I just let it be. It's like so much work and so much grief and so much processing emotions. It is it is the grief work. It really is. It's it is not easy and it's exhausting.

Michael Liben: 17:25

Yeah, it's hard work. It's work well done and worth doing. And I want to ask you about that because I've heard a lot of people in the states tell me, "Well, somehow society's weeded that out from us, we don't have a way of publicly dealing with grief, we're told to be quiet. We're told not to talk about it. We're told to just get over it, told keep it at home and then go to work. And everything's fine and wrong. We can't do that". Do you think that's true? And do you think that maybe there is a way that you can suggest that people can in fact work their grief through even publicly but to process it in such a way that they can go on without always feeling held back?

Megan Hillukka: 18:02

I think that's a tough question. And something everybody, like grief is so personal. And I think the thing that holds us back a lot of times is our own grief expectations of what we expect our grief to look like maybe you were like, "What in the world is wrong with me? Why am I still so sad?" When you haven't experienced grief, you cannot understand the depth of pain that you feel and the duration that it goes on.

Michael Liben: 18:35

If you've enjoyed listening to this program, please visit our website, heartsunitetheglobe.org, and make a contribution. This program is a presentation of Hearts Unite the Globe. and is part of the HUG Podcast Network. Hearts Unite the Globe is a nonprofit organization devoted to providing resources to the congenital heart defect community to educate, empower, and enrich the lives of our community members. If you would like access to free resources pertaining to the CHD community, please visit our website at congenitalheartdefects.com for information about CHD, hospitals that treat CHD survivors, summer camps for CHD families, and much, much more. One of the things that we've learned from doing this podcast for years is a term called Post Traumatic Growth, which is where someone has a traumatic experience. But the person actually grows from the tragedy. It seems as though the trauma of losing Aria has helped you in what you do today. Can you talk about how you came to the decision to start a podcast?

Megan Hillukka: 19:33

It was really scary for me just because I was like, "What in the world do I have to share? How can I help people?" And the whole journey of me coming to doing this work and this podcast really was a kind of a process in the journey because I I felt like how do I help people when they're like I can't help them because their child died. That's all they want. To you know, they want their child back. And I can't

Michael Liben: 19:56

Yeah, yeah. fix that, I can't fix what they want. And so, for me, it actually was a whole nother level of like, me grieving my own grief and feeling my own pain. And now, looking at it through a different lens of how do I help other people? How do I

Megan Hillukka: 20:15

But for me, I wish that I could not have had show people that there's hope? How do I give people tools to Aria die. But this is what has happened. And what can I learn process the pain? How do I teach them different perspectives and different ways to look at grief? And then have people on that from it? How can I grow from it? How can I take this experience, offer perspective stories and tools as well, that I don't know, that can really help process the emotions of grief. And so I just love doing the work I do. I know you talked about post traumatic growth and I think anyone who has experienced loss is like, "I don't, I don't want to be better. I don't want to be a better person, I don't want because I'd rather have them back". Right? and become a better person, because I actually do want to be a better person, just because my life was good with Aria doesn't mean my life can't be better now. And really just diving into that. And I have so much gratitude for where I am right now because I've done the work. And I just had an experience recently where I felt that gratitude for Aria's death in the way that I have a gift to give other people now. Not that I'm grateful that she died, but for the way that I've learned to live with grief, and being able to give that gift of hope and help and support to other people now.

Michael Liben: 21:48

You know, to go back for a second on on the idea of faith, I think that's what you've done there is you've taken an understanding and an acceptance of what is and then learn how to work with it. Whereas a lot of people crossed that line between faith and magic, I want it back. I want my loved one back, I want to change, I want it to be the way it was and you can't have that. So the next best thing is how do you get on from there and take what you have left and work with that. And I think that's what you're doing.

Megan Hillukka: 22:16

I think it does take a time to process that I do think there's a period of what I kind of see as like limbo where your feet don't really hit the ground, you're kind of on, like,"Who am I? Who was I? Who am I becoming?" like, "I don't really like who I'm becoming, I don't like who I am now all I want to do is go back to who I was". And it's a very, very painful, painful process and experience. That I had a mom just saying she's living in two different realities right now, where she's looking at what could have been, how it could be different, all these things. And that creates so much suffering in her life, and she sees what it is. And I think it takes time for our brains and our bodies and everything to work through that to get to a place of "You know what this is, what happened. This is my life. So how do I want to go moving forward? How do I want to live my life now?"

Michael Liben: 23:08

Well, we have an interesting thing here, we talked about this in the pre interview is that you have two processes going on, you have an emotional process, which is not something you can really control very well. And then you have an intellectual process that you use to try and figure out how to get through this. And you're actually scientifically using two different parts of your brain, your reptilian brain is fighting with the cortex, the the newest part of your brain and the oldest part of the brain. And they're diametrically opposed here. So I think the hardest thing you can do is get them to work together to solve this problem. And I think that's one of the things that you're doing when you work with moms. So tell me more about the work that you're doing with moms.

Megan Hillukka: 23:42

My main thing that I do is really help them, I kind of come at it from two different perspectives, two different angles, I call it the top down and bottom up approach. One way is by feeling emotions and processing emotions in your body. Emotions are really physical and sensational in your body and so often we're very separate from that, because they feel scary, they feel painful, they feel like they're too much. And so I really help moms come back to their bodies to feel to know that they have the capability to feel all of their emotions, they don't have to be scared of any of them. And sometimes you have to build in that, you know, build your capacity to feel because you've shut it down for so many years. So that's one area that I do that through meditations and tapping. It's like EFT Emotional Freedom Technique, really visualizations and different ways of just sitting with the emotion and being like, "Oh, I'm actually okay, I'm gonna be okay". And as we allow emotion, the quicker it moves through us and the lighter it gets. We think that when we resist an emotion, that you know, we're shoving it down, we're being strong, we're getting rid of it, but actually makes it last longer and get stronger. It's almost like you relax into that emotion. You can let go wouldn't let it be there. And then all sudden, it's like, wow, okay, that went through me and I'm done with it, I don't have to sit and live in it every day, it might keep coming up. But when you know, to sit with it and allow it to flow through you, it's so much easier to manage life, because we're gonna have so many emotions, we are human beings, we have emotions every single day. So that's one area that I work with. And then the other side of it is from our thoughts in our brain. So that's top down processing. And a lot of people want to talk about their feelings and talk about their emotions and talk about it. But they're not actually feeling like from the bottom up. But from the top down it's,"Okay, how do I notice what thoughts I'm having about my experience? Maybe that shouldn't be this way, that it should be different, my life should look different, that it was my fault, that there was something I could have done to save them". All these kinds of thoughts. So I have different ways of looking at your thoughts of clean grief thoughts, and dirty grief thoughts. So clean grief, thoughts are thoughts that do cause pain, because grief is painful. So like, "I'm sad that they're not here". Or "I just miss them so much". Of course you do. Of course, you're sad. Those are completely clean, and they bring that sadness and that pain. But there's no suffering in there. It's just the clean grief pain, because we're not going to get rid of grief, we're not going to get rid of pain. This is our lot to carry with our life now.

Michael Liben: 26:27

I don't want to get rid of my grief. I think grief is part of who I am now.

Megan Hillukka: 26:30

Yeah, totally, totally. And when you know that you're like, and I think that's another fear that a lot of people have is, if I stop grieving, that means I'm moving on or like if I try to heal my pain or my grief, that I'm moving on, I'm gonna forget them. But you will never forget them and you'll never move on from them, you learn to carry the grief with you. So the other, the dirty grief thoughts are the thoughts that create suffering, like I said, like "I should have been able to save them". These are like thoughts that really get you in a loop, in a cycle spinning with guilt, with suffering. And these thoughts are optional. These are not thoughts you need to believe, these are not thoughts that are true even. A lot of moms I work with deal with a lot of guilt, that "I should have been able to save them that if I would have been there at this time, I could have stopped them from dying". And as we look in from the outside, we're like that's not true. But to them, it's real. It is absolutely 100% real, and for them to be able to begin to come aware of it feel that guilt. But also then like,"Okay, do I want to continue to believe that do I want to keep going down that thought of suffering and beating myself up over and over?" And eventually, what I hope for everybody is that they can decide at some point that you know what, I don't deserve to suffer like that anymore. And I'm not going to let myself think that kind of fight anymore, because that is what's causing me suffering.

Michael Liben: 27:58

I'm glad you said that. Because a lot of people think it's important for them to believe that they've done something wrong, they haven't. To quote a bad movie, "Sometimes people just die". Sometimes things happen that are beyond our control. And all we have left is to live with it in a way that we can try to understand or at least accept and continue and get on you. For example, you have six other kids and a husband, they all need you and you have to be there for them. And that doesn't mean you forget Aria doesn't mean you put her away somewhere. It means you keep her with you in a way that doesn't hinder you from doing what you need to do with the rest of your life; seems so crystal clear when you say it like that. A lot of people just aren't there, or they need the time to get there. And you're helping them get there.

Megan Hillukka: 28:39

Yeah, that is what I do is to help people sit with that pain and no, sometimes we try to rush grief. Okay, you know, I need to get over this as quick as possible. But really, we need to be able to sit with it and hold it and know that feeling these emotions are okay, there's nothing wrong with you. You're not going crazy. Grief is the most depth of emotion you'll ever experience, especially of a child. It's just so... I felt like I was going crazy. So many times. I didn't know I could feel so many emotions at one time. And one thing I learned was, because I kept seeing why am I feeling like so, so sad, feel both? Oh, okay. I never thought of that. Why am I even regecting my emotions? but also like so happy. I couldn't figure out like which

Michael Liben: 29:18

Sometimes even at the same time. One of the things one am I actually feeling? I like to tell people is that yeah, that's fine. You do feel bad and you do hurt but you know the memories, they go from bitter to bittersweet to sweet. And in the end the memorie's just sweet. And when you think of your lost loved one, you smile, and that's a good thing. And then I can move on and I can take them with me wherever I go. And then I have an obligation to tell their stories to other people who didn't know them but it comes to me to do that. And it's something I'm happy to do because it makes me feel good. What are some of the other programs and the things that you do, how you physically work with parents, what is it that you can provide them?

Megan Hillukka: 30:04

So through all this work that I do, I also have a community called "Grieving Moms Haven". That is basically the only place that people can go to work with me. It has a whole program in there called"Life After Child Loss". And that's really the closest thing to a step by step guide that I can give you to help you work through this and know that there's hope and there's healing, and there's ways that you can make this lighter. And then there's also tons of tapping meditations and emotional meditations to help you connect with your body. And then we have two coaching calls a month where we just get on we do all these live these meditations and have time to connect with other moms. So that is my main area of work along with my podcast. So that's grievingmomshaven.com and then"Grieving Moms" podcast are the places I do the most work.

Michael Liben: 30:55

How does a grieving mom who needs you right now, how do they find you?

Megan Hillukka: 31:00

You can go to grievingmomshaven.com That is where you could sign up for"Grieving Moms Haven" or if you want to just check out my work and my website, that's www.meganhillukka.com. And you can find my podcasts you can find, I have some free workshops on there. And then if you just want to follow along our bus journey, and I share about grief and life and kind of everything that I'm super passionate about on there on Instagram, it's"Cultivated Family".

Michael Liben: 31:26

I also want to point out that all of the work that you do with moms is on Zoom. So it doesn't matter that you're on a bus in the middle of nowhere. You are accessible to everybody all the time. And I think that's wonderful. And I hope that everybody who needs you can find you. I think you're doing great work. I think you have to keep it up and never stop. And when the bus journey is over, I don't know get a plane, do something.

Megan Hillukka: 31:51

My husband wants to get a sailboat.

Michael Liben: 31:53

There you go. There you go. Wi Fi in the middle of the Pacific Ocean sounds great. If only Gilligan had had that. Megan, thank you so much for joining us on"Bereaved But Still Me", it's been a pleasure talking with you.

Megan Hillukka: 32:06

Thank you MIchael. It has been a pleasure too, for me.

Michael Liben: 32:09

And that concludes this episode of"Bereaved But Still Me". I want to thank Megan Hillukka for sharing her experience and her wisdom with us. Please join us at the beginning of the month for a brand new podcast. I'll talk with you soon. And until then please remember moving forward is not moving away.

Anna Jaworski: 32:25

Thank you for joining us. We help you have felt supported in your grief journey. "Bereaved But Still Me" is a monthly podcast and a new episode is released on the first Thursday of each month. You can hear our podcast anywhere you normally listen to podcasts at any time. Join us again next month for a brand new episode of"Bereaved But Still Me".